About Jonah Hahn
1,045 comments
    • He was Awesome and honest, which is what all other hosts lack these days due to corruption within media…… It’s so messed up from the food we eat and the air we breathe. This is all planned by the Elite to watch this country break down . They are spraying chemtrails over our heads, poisoning the water with fracking, and putting cancer causing things in our foodwhile make $ from it! but all you sheople will deny it until the end, hoping they’ll play nice.Even law enforcement has families being affected from these things, but obey b/c of payoffs……

    • They are delusional..the president has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything. He is the PUPPET, the voice of big business. HE IS TOLD WHAT TO DO AND SAY!

      • Oh, and Congress isn’t? The GOP is bought and paid for with Koch Brothers money. Republicans? No, John Birch Society meatpuppets.

        • The GOP? What about the democrat party bough and paid for with George Soros money???? He has 10 times the assets of the Koch Brothers! What about the trillions spent by Democrats on green energy? those same companies took their subsidy and went to China! How about out of the 10 RICHEST members of Congress, 7 of them are Democcrats?????

          • You’re right. John Kerry is “smart” to have married into money…..TWICE! The guy hasn’t had an honest job since his paper route and he’s worth 200M. It’s easy to throw around moeny when it isn’t rightfully yours.

          • Yes, that was a smart move, to marry into money (and be the genetic descendant of the Forbes family).
            The fact his family had money, does not negate his intelligence (the level of which is of course debatable), nor does it disprove a well-known fact that people with higher education usually make more money.
            So what is your point?

          • This list is really making me think, and I don’t like it; almost none of these people have any qualification for holding an office (that qualification, to me, being an expert in some field, a technocrat, be it a businessman/entrepreneur, or an educator, or a scientist/engineer, or an economist.)

          • Delving a little deeper, the most laughable state of affairs is the House Science Committee – a group consisting mainly of people (I’ll let everyone do some research into which political party they subscribe to) who deny the basic tenets of science because the Bible don’t say nuffin’ about dinosaurs or humanity’s capacity to burn insane amounts of carbon.

          • Not only are those 7 richest Democrats but they earned their money after they became a member of Congress. Talk about being bought…

          • How about the 1000+ Republicans who made a fortune after being elected? Get real; they’re all in the same boat!

          • how about all those Democrats that got rich the same way,you have to be a liberal they are the only ones who would make a dumb statement like that,the point this man is making is it is both parties at fault,and most of them are corrupt and out for themselves,and that is not just at the federal level,its from the top on down to the state and City level,we see the same things taking place in the little town we live in,we are drowning in over priced services at all level of Government,its like trying to fill up a bottomless hole,no matter how much money comes in they always want more and more,when the unrighteous rule sin increases at every level just as it has in our time it is unabashed greed,for money materialism ,the want of everything, its present in business, banking,religion,politics,its the love of money to the extreme and what it can do for us we think,but we are deluded if we believe it is not destructive.—Jim Hunt

          • Any millionaire, Democrat or Republican, that wants to keep the government from a fair level of taxation doesn’t give a crap about the country. Those that are trying to increase taxes on the uber-wealthy to a fair level and give away most of their money, tend to give a shit.

            Of the two major parties, both have members of the former category; however, the only one that has members of the latter category are the Democrats. They’re both corrupt parties, but one of them has people that actually give a shit, one of them has people that actually know how to balance the budget and care about the health and well-being of the nation, and only one of them has members that want justice and equality for the people.

          • Your reply was so convoluted and poorly written, it took me a minute to understand what you were saying. I think the basics of it are “democrats care about the country and the health of it’s citizens, and republicans are greedy pigs.” Does that sound about right?

            Do you realize exactly how freaking stupid that post is? As well as being hypocritical and full of so many lies that it would take a team of investigators years to compile all the research that shows exactly how full of BS it is. Justice and equality from a DEMOCRAT? BWAHAHAHAHAAHAA! That’s freaking hilarious! They are the biggest liars in the world, who care nothing for anything EXCEPT their own power and money, using the minorities as virtual slaves to them by BUYING them with free stuff.

            This thread is so full of liberal rhetoric that it makes it painful to read. The prime story is that the jackass in the clip was telling everyone that we need to let a pathological liar take total charge of the government. To that, any normal THINKING PERSON would say “hell no!” But being liberal is far from being normal, and even farther from being a thinking person. Idiots.

          • Not really, it seems the intended meaning is clear, although it does include much qualitative conversation.

            Questions for you.

            Is it loving to mock someone so as this seems to be what you are doing?

            If you are a republican then what are the good points of the democrats (or if you support the right what are the good aspects of the left) or vise-versa.

          • Frankly, I could care less what idiots from the moron dumbasscrat side think. Oh, wait. That’s an oxymoron. You idiots DON’T think. What could I have been thinking, which conservatives ARE more capable of doing than those from the liberal idiot side.

          • So based on your answer conservatives are haters? Remember the reason that stereotypes exist is because they are connected to reality … you are representing those that are like whether you like it or not.

          • Nice try, but no. You don’t get to be the little bitch that turns everything around to race, hate and intolerance. What intolerance I have idiots like you have EARNED little child. By your total failure to act like an adult, and supply your OWN NEEDS without nanny Obuttmonkey and his racist, hate filled little ass wipes holding onto your uppity, entitlement yearning hand. Grow up you little douchebag. And stop blaming everyone who doesn’t want to support your lame ass for all your self incurred problems.

          • Money that goes to green energy benefits us all. Money that goes to the Koch’s only benefits the Koch’s. How can you compare the two? Show me proof that all money going to green energy goes to China.

          • “You said something bad about Republicans?? ::rabble rabble rabble rabble::”
            “Well you said something about Democrats?? ::rabble rabble rabble rabble::”
            “I’m gonna ignore everything you said because I heard you say Republicans!! ::rabble rabble rabble rabble::”
            “That could be a fair argument if you didn’t bring up Democrats!! ::rabble rabble rabble rabble::”

            You all missed the point of the video.

          • Absolutely – they both got us in this mess. It took decades to get us here and it will take decades to get us out. I am just thankful my God is bigger. Christ is coming one day and He will set this straight.

          • No no, let’s not do that. You are entitled to your faith, but we cannot sit around and wait for zombies to fix everything. You can sit around and pray things will get better, or you can stand up and work to change the system.

            Just because the media covers Democrat and Republican, it doesn’t mean that they’re our only options. Both parties have become parodies of themselves and we feed into their entitlement. We have the ability to fix this, but again, this involves putting our prayer books down, tying our own shoelaces like the adults that we’re supposed to be, and going out to actually work towards change.

            Do you know how many people told me that they voted because ‘one guy was better than the other guy’? Really, we want to give the highest seat in America to the lesser of two evils? Just because we have the right to vote, doesn’t mean that these politicians have EARNED our votes.

            I will sooner sit on my hands than vote for an inferior product. I did it in 2012, and I will continue to do it until someone steps up and earns my votes.

          • “I will sooner sit on my hands than vote for an inferior product. I did it in 2012, and I will continue to do it until someone steps up and earns my votes.”

            So, instead of voting for the person you think is most likely to do a better job, you’ll do nothing? That type of thinking is exactly what lead to the shutdown. If that’s not taking a shit on democracy, I don’t know what is.

          • If Option A is a C- and Option B is a C+, I’m not voting for either. We’ve let our standards drop. We need A candidates and nothing less. Our system doesn’t allow for it because we need one Democrat and one Republican (and then an independent to act as a sideshow). We shouldn’t be supporting a system that presents us with mediocrity. I want the best leaders, not the best politicians with the most financial backing.

            Stupidity and politics led to the shutdown. Republicans need to become more relevant and in tune with what’s going on today. Democrats need to turn down the Randy Newman songs and realize that everybody doesn’t need to be holding hands.

            America: We stand united, while we independently co-exist. That’s what it’s about. Practice religion freely, don’t impinge on somebody else’s rights, and mind your own business. Work to make the country and citizens’ lives better, for the present and for the future. That’s all we can and should do.

            If more people stepped up and refused to support this nonsense that continues to be put in front of us, there would be no need for a shutdown.

          • Yes I have to agree here because when we vote for bad candidates then we get only more bad candidates to vote for later on as the good candidates who don’t win will get less support for the next election.

            It becomes a vicious cycle of diminishing returns to the point that candidates on BOTH sides are now the lesser of both evils.

            I hardly vote anymore.

          • ???

            I was referring to bad candidates,not what form of government we have.

            What made you see otherwise?

          • It is called nullification. The majority do not support the system. Do not finance it. The system takes too much and gives too little.

          • How, exactly, does one nullify a system by not participating in it, if others do? You are simply giving more power to those that do participate.

            Your comment does not make sense.

          • Let us get that correct. We used to live in a Republic. We have not in years. The coffin lid was closed by the Current care taker ie head golf player.

          • It is STILL a Republic in form but not being treated as one in practice since it is now a special interest nation and the voters fail to notice the show that is going on right in front of them.Recently the numbers for Obamacare has been released and it shows why voting as a democrat is a very foolish idea:

            Obamacare Increases Premiums by As Much As 305 Percent

            September 25, 2013

            By Andrew Lundeen

            EXCERPT:

            The numbers are finally out for Obamacare premiums and they look expensive. From Forbes (emphasis added):

            “Based on a Manhattan Institute analysis of the HHS numbers, Obamacare will increase underlying insurance rates for younger men by an average of 97 to 99 percent, and for younger women by an average of 55 to 62 percent. Worst off is North Carolina, which will see individual-market rates triple for women, and quadruple for men.”

            Young men in Nebraska will see the largest increase in their
            premiums, up 279 percent, for the bronze level plan. Young women in
            Nebraska will also see the largest increase, up 227 percent.

            http://taxfoundation.org/blog/obamacare-increases-premiums-much-305-percent
            ====================================================================================
            Many Republicans and Tea Party members warned of increased costs for over two years and even from the CBO that were ignored or ridiculed by the ignorant democrats.

            It is a good thing that ZERO republicans in the Congress voted for ACA.This is a 100% liberal millstone that can be used to smash them with for 2014.

          • Lying about Romneycare doesn’t change the fact that it doesn’t increase premiums for consumers.

          • The combination of heavily subsidized demand and tight, over-regulated supply is a textbook formula for perpetuating the big, chronic price increases that bedevil today’s health-care system.

            Instead of attacking the real causes of the explosion in costs — the combination of overly generous state aid and a dearth of competition among hospitals and physician groups — Massachusetts is vilifying prestigious, non-profit insurers, and punishing them, believe it nor not, with price controls. In April, Governor Deval Patrick refused the request of carriers such as Harvard Pilgrim, the top-rated plan in the country, for premium increases of 8% to 32%. Instead, his administration is refusing all rate hikes over 7.7%; any rate requests the administration rejects are automatically held at 2009 levels.

            They are also having problems paying for the program that subsidizes people. They only have about 5% that were uninsured and there are still 3% that aren’t insured but plan to get insurance when they need it. Some insurance companies have left the state and they have also lost doctors. A subsidy comes from taxpayers dollars so they will sooner or later have to pay for all this.

            As for business – they will now charge more so the cost of living will go up.

          • The original plan for Obama care was simple and has been proven to be better then our current health care by most of Europe Canada and almost every other developed nation in the world. Everybody would have paid a tax which would have given every American citizen health care and if you chose to have better insurance then you simply bought additional on your own money. The republicans are the ones that forced obama care to be the mess we know it is now. Further more you seem to have missed the point entirely. Republicans are bought and paid for. Democrats are bought and paid for. As long as we keep ignoring the problem with our bipartisan democracy our country will countinue to rot.

          • Not a single Republican voted for this plan that the Democrats created. Try again. This is all a result of back room, closed door politics.

          • So do you have any idea what Europeans pay in taxes? Much more than we do. Further go study Germany. Their clinics are staffed by many volunteers as are their hospitals. See over there they help out. Over here we have the liberals crying that something has to be done but they never pitch in and do it, they just run to the government and the taxpayers get screwed.

            My good friend lives in Canada and came here for cancer treatment because her waiting time was 6 to 7 months before she could get care. That’s good health care? You need to go study before commenting. You need to get facts instead of spewing what others say and what you read in the biased media.

            No one has missed the point that BOTH parties are bought and paid for. There are a few in those parties that have the best interest of America at heart, but not many are left. Stop donating money to either party. Stop supporting their hand picked candidates and go out and learn and talk to those running in primaries then support the one you believe will represent you.

            Until Americans get off the couch and get involved, we will be controlled by the 47% who take from the other 53% who work.

          • You failed to mention that any healthcare that person received for their cancer treatment was paid for by the Canadian government. You really need to study before commenting.You need to get the facts instead of spewing what others say and what you read in the biased media. Why is it that the healthiest countries in the world have universal healthcare systems? Why is it that the United States is 40th in the world for healthcare, and we spend more for it than any of these countries? Our infant mortality rate is abysmal compared to these other countries with universal healthcare. We have thousands die every year from prescription drug overdoses in this country and no one says a word about it. We have more medicine, more hospitals and more doctors but we have one of the sickest and unhealthiest populations in the world. Where is the outrage? Oh wait. Universal healthcare is bad.

          • In Costa Rica they have universal health care. One can get private insurance, but it will not pay for preexisting conditions. The hospital buildings are adequate, not corporate owned for profit or owned as a tax write off by the super rich as in the USA.

            The life expectancy is higher than in the USA, It works quite well here, There are always exceptions, but generally it serves it’s citizens well.

          • Still doesn’t mean there will be quality healthcare. All systems are corrupt. Take the insurance mix out and maybe people can get well. It’s just as broke as the financial s and political systems

          • Obamacare was never meant to succeed. It is only meant to be such a failure and unaffordable that it will increase the numbers receiving medicaid and the people will cry foul and the Democrat’s solution will be single-payer socialist medicine. What they have wanted all along.

          • You are correct. In Mass. most of the insurance companies have left the state and there are not enough doctors. Also, when people need coverage they sign up and that is causing huge deficits in the program. People need to learn that the government cannot do anything correctly. Look at their track record:

            Education is a failure

            War on Poverty – 27% more people, per capita in property today than at the inception of the program.

            Model Cities – Detroit was the poster child and what we got was a downtown slum.

            Department of Energy – created to get us off foreign oil

            VA – why not stop spending money on running their own hospitals, which are failures and give our service people good insurance so they can at least choose their care.

            Medicare – many doctors, hospitals and clinics refuse to take new patients.

            Medicaid – same as Medicare and just as riddled with fraud.

            I could go on, but why? People just keep depending on something that will ultimately fail them.

          • You forgot to add the numbers released from the Congressional Budget Office. They estimate that Obamacare will COST TAXPAYERS $2.1 TRILLION in the next 10 years. All to insure about 30 million people, some of which were already Medicaid eligible? Why didn’t we just subsidize health care cooperatives and let the states run them with that money. It’s not about health care – it’s about nationalization of an entire industry.

          • No it was closed in the 60’s by LBJ and his Great Society programs. We are still paying for most of them and they are failures.

          • Not any more. We used to live in a Republic, we have let it go. We now live in a Democracy, almost hinging towards an olgarchy. We need to get it back before it too late.

          • One of our founders called Democracy mob rule. What we have today is a two party system that is bought and paid for by banks, Wall Street and special interest groups. We have self-serving politicians like Reid, Pelosi, McCain, Waters, McConnell, etc. who continue to get re-elected because they bring pork to their states and they say (not do) what the people want to hear.

            What we have today is socialism, creeping very quickly toward communism. If you don’t believe that go to YouTube and search for “Ted Cruz’ father gives and epic speech” and see how it works. We have been warned numerous times: Lenin stated once that one of the last pieces of implementing communism it the nationalization of healthcare and banking. We are at the healthcare stage and because of mis-mangement and bad political appointments we have nationalized Fannie and Freddie.

            khrushchev had a quote “We cannot expect Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism.”

          • Bull roar Leonidcat, it is called fascism, or as Mussolini liked to call it, Corporatism,
            please, a smart man like you should know the difference.

          • We are “supposed” to live in a Republic, not a democracy; however, the reality is neither. The current US political system is a conspired, complicit, elitist oligarchy. The US Congress is being directed by this oligarchy and only directly is unaware of the power that it imposes over the Congress. The Executive branch is also being directed by this oligarchy along with the courts. Otherwise all the illegal and unconstitutional crap that is unbalancing our 3 branches of government would be stopped because one branch would work to prevent the others from breaking the law. But when a government is being controlled by an outside force, it breaks down and no one is prosecuted, they cover for each other for a variety of reasons including: money, power, promise of protection, and promise of prevention of prosecution for their own crimes. The US became first a incorporation run by corporate rules rather than the constitution and now has become this Oligarchy ruled by a few elitist power mongers who are working to run the whole world economy and “manage” and control all the resources of the planet. The preponderance of people will call this impossible because as long as it isn’t affecting them too directly, they will tolerate and disbelieve it. But the axe will fall and fall hard one day.

          • Voting is our one chance to change things. I find it interesting that those that yell the loudest about how terrible our government is are the ones who don’t exercise their American right to vote. By disenfranchising yourself you only empower the worst of those who are ambitious enough to seek public office. If you don’t like the candidates you can always do a write-in vote.

          • How many write in candidates have won in the Senate,White house?

            The real problem are the LOUSY choices we have to consider as the better ones have a distressing tendency to lose in the primaries.

            Please don’t bother me with your disenfranchising remarks again because it makes you appear out of touch with reality of what is happening to America where the majority of the voters chose the candidates who will send them money in some form that slowly weakens their individual power and foster increasing dependency.

          • Yes, it’s out of touch to say that you cannot fix a system that is changed by voting, by, you know, voting. *sarcasm*

            You’re bitching about not hitting the right target all the while refusing to take a shot.

          • LOL,

            you keep missing the point because you are still infatuated with the belief that voting for somebody will fix it when the ENTIRE PROCESS is corrupted!

            Meanwhile it is already too late to save the country as it is steeped in corruption and greed.

          • Too late? Sorry, I take it you’re backing that up with statistics? You’re a historian? Sociologist? Economist? Curiously, these fields and more conflict with your opinion.

            Whatever; go be the Doomsday Crier, taking care to note that the only thing that will cause this system to implode is if either so many people stop voting that the system is left up to the rich. When you work to prevent the country from being saved, you are one of the strongest forces of it’s actual destruction- and you’re even failing at that.

          • You STILL miss the point!

            It is no wonder why we have so many bad apples in the White House.

            Please go away and try your drivel on someone else.

          • So I have a Masters in Economics and a minor in History. I can certainly say it “might” be too late because we are now over $87 TRILLION in debt because of government over-spending and borrowing to buy votes. $87 TRILLION you say? Yes, if you count all the government under funded and unfunded future obligations for the next 10 years that would be the figure you would get. Social Security has been systematically robbed to pay for social entitlement programs. Medicare and Medicaid are the result of rising health care costs and federal cost over runs. Obamacare is slated to cost us $2.1 TRILLION over the next 10 years. All of the above are under funded or unfunded.

            So if we started right now today, and spending stayed the same as now, and paid $1M per day toward the national debt it would take 389 years to pay it off. Think about that and then come back and tell me I have no cause for concern.

            Whose going to pay for that? If you want to call me a Doomsday Crier go ahead, but first go study Venezuela and Argentina to see how they got where they are today. If you have time maybe even Cuba.

          • yes because cuba’s economic situation arouse sole by its being a communist country… and america’s crippling economic sanctions and blockades had nothing to do with it. nor did our military invasions and occupations… and multiple assassination attempts on its political leaders over the years.

          • What military invasions or occupations? I really don’t remember in my history studies that we actually invaded Cuba.

          • No – it’s not occupied. Four-hundred years after Columbus, on June 10 1898, U.S. marines landed on the bay during the Spanish-American War. Guantánamo has been under unrivaled U.S. control since the Spanish American war concluded in 1898.

            In 1903 U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt signed an agreement with Cuba’s new government, leasing the bay for 2,000 gold coins per year. The agreement was forced on the new Cuban government, and gave the U.S. navy permission to occupy the bay.

          • so much for you “minor in history” … shows how much an appeal to authority is worth as argumentation. you point to an agreement that was forced at gunpoint as if it had any legitimacy… reached with a government that no longer exists… to justify our continued occupation of cuba… congratulations.

          • I’m sure the banker high-jacked US govt imperial war machine would honor the same type of ‘2000 coin’ agreement from 2 centuries ago. ha

          • I might also mention that if we confiscated every single penny that the “rich” have it would be nothing toward the DEBT. You people are just using class and jealously to make an argument. Grow up… poor people don’t provide jobs. People like me provide jobs – I employ 122 and it’s is becoming harder and harder to stay in business because of federal, state, county and city taxes and regulations. That’s the problem, not the RICH!

          • You’re entitled to the right to be wrong, classist, heartless, greedy and to lie, but that doesn’t make anything you say true.

            “You people are just using class and jealously to make an argument. Grow up… poor people don’t provide jobs. People like me provide jobs – I employ 122 and it’s is becoming harder and harder to stay in business because of federal, state, county and city taxes and regulations.” Weird, since taxes have collectively been going down since before ’08. Perhaps you just have a shit business model, and you want something to blame.

            But why am I even doing this: unless you start caring about reality and giving a shit about people, then what’s the point of having an argument involve facts? As they don’t matter to you, is there a reason anyone should bother?

          • Loniudcat, the question is not that “fair” taxation would be better than what we have. It’s that what we have is unsustainable, and it keeps getting worse and worse, especially for those who once worked for a living. There is nothing many unemployed former workers can do that is economically worthwhile. The “job creators” will hire a robot every time to do a job if it can be done cheaper than by a human worker. Not every job needs to be replaced by a robot (or “automation”). Just enough of them to cause a Global Financial Collapse, as now.

            What has caused that collapse? A failure of the “job creators” to employ enough people so they can buy what the robots could produce if they were not stilled? No. The true “job creators” are those who buy what is produced. But the robot owners make a profit only when their robots are working. Many robots are stilled by the Global Financial Collapse. Their owners will profit only if they are at work.

            How to do that, and retain capitalism? By redistributing income from those who have to those who do not. This can be done by a progressive income tax, taking money from the profits made by the robot owners, the 1%, and then distributing it, via a Citizens Dividend, to the 99% i.e., to those whose purchases can sustain the system. Take from the rich and give to everyone else. This is not just the “flat tax” favored by Steve Forbes – that will not cause income redistribution. To prevent Steve and the other robot owners from getting richer and richer. we must take some of their income and redistribute it to those who are getting poorer.

            This is not just fair, it is sustainable. That’s far more important There is no reason it cannot last forever. But spending capital for 300 years on labor saving devices and returning the profits made by those devices only to their owners is bound eventually to lead to unemployment – both those who once did the work will stay unemployed, and eventually the labor-saving devices themselves will be stilled, through financial collapse, just as we have seen.

            To save capitalism, demonstrated to be the best way to increase human productivity, we gotta get them robots working again!

            On the path we are on now, with profits earned by robots kept by their owners, inequality keeps rising ominously. Once it gets bad enough so people cannot feed their families, they will revolt, with unpredictable consequences, except for one. Rich people – the owners of the robots – will become targets, and they will lose their heads. Which Steve Forbes would doubtless favor less than he favors a flat tax.

            If only Steve and the other oligarchs who own both parties could see that the only way for them to hang on to their heads is to give up more of their income to a graduated income tax.

            This does not necessarily lead to “big government”. The question of whether we should have NIH or colonize Mars (or spend what we do on “security”) is completely separate. Money can be collected and redistributed by a relatively small government agency, as it is done in Alaska. And the national debt. which is totally unnecessary anyway, as Thomas Edison said, can be eliminated by keeping government expenditures in line with what we raise in taxes to pay for them. Meanwhile, no need for a govenrment “social safety net”, no food stamsp or welfare burucrady is needed. Every one gets a “living wage” whether they are at work or not. And we can afford it. All that’s required is a truly progressive income tax. If only Steve Forbes, and the other oligarchs running our society, could see that.

          • hey tom, great post… here is a letter from thomas jefferson to james madison about progressive taxation that im sure that you’ll find most enlightening.

            it is somewhat long, about twice the length of your post but well worth the time reading… to tempt you however i will quote directly below

            “Another means of silently lessening the
            inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain
            point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical
            progression as they rise.”
            thomas jefferson 1785

          • Here’s the deal – I had a business until 12/31/13. I shut my doors. I worked hard for 22 years and grew that business. I also employed 122 people and provided good wages, health care and a safe work environment. I was taxed and regulated out by city, state, county and federal. People believe that most regulations have to do with environmental, but only about 3% are. Most are government reporting, workplace regulations, and regulations that are passed via lobbying efforts so other businesses can make money off of mine.

            When I moved my business from tax and spend Washington State I was able to hire 5 more employees. How do you account for that? Because my TAXES and regulations were less. I finally sat down and thought about why I was working 60 hours a week when the government was taking more and more of a chunk of what I made.

            If you really want to blame someone for something, STOP WITH THE BUSINESS OWNER CRAP! Start studying what the relationship is between the Federal Reserve and the government you elected to represent YOU. It’s the largest and most illegal Ponzi scheme in the world and it’s going on every day, day after day. The government spend more than it makes, the FED loans money they create out of thin air, and we get inflation and higher interest rates.

            The fact is that with Obamacare I could not longer justify staying in business and working. I’m not working local charities that help PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES and it’s more rewarding than being a slave to the progressive (communism) movement.

          • Why do you think the one the richest men in this country favors a flat tax? Do you have any idea what your tax rate would be? You would not like it.

          • It’s only too late if you don’t take a stand and get out there and work. Get off the couch. I don’t care if you are Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Conservative, Communist or what! Just get out and work to make your country a better place.

            We can stop corruption if we want. Just don’t vote for those that take any special interest money and stop letting the two parties we know and hate get the upper hand. Think about voting for intelligent, hard working, honest people instead of one from either party.

          • OK here’s my story. When Kay Hutchinson retired we had a chance to elect a new person to that seat. I decided that instead of sitting home I would go out and meet the candidates. I met them three different times and asked them questions and got their answers. I listed to their speeches, judged their character and watched a listened.

            Ted Cruz was the result. He was not supported by the Republican Party. They supported a career politician that lied via attack ads. People in my area got enthused about Ted because he was intelligent, hard working and honest. He has said he doesn’t care if he’s re-elected – he cares about what happens to this country and it’s economy and jobs. By working together we over-came the hand picked puppet from the Republican party and got what we wanted… someone to represent us.

            I realize that Ted would not be everyone’s cup of tea because he’s highly outspoken and can be aggressive, but he’s our cup of tea and we love him for what he tried to do. CUT SPENDING…..

          • if you hardly vote anymore than you are part of the problem, and really should not complain. Get out there vote out the ones who take bribes. Better yet, stand with the effort I posted above and fight to change the way our government is
            run. A grass root movement put a Jr. Senator in the Whitehouse. All that’s needed are the majority of dissatisfied voters. 🙂 How long it takes depends on how many intelligent citizens actually believe the propaganda “What can one person do?” or “You can’t change the system” which is insidiously spread by politicians.

          • You keep overlooking MY complaint that the candidates SUCK and not worth the vote since they are for big government and career in office outlook.

          • If there are no good candidates then you should run or find one and promote them.. The solution is hard work and commitment to change through our choices or actions.

          • It is a good comment but……

            In Eastern Washington there are NO democrats in office,not a single one and yet democrats keeps getting the governorship because of TWO counties in Western Washington.Nearly all the rest of the state is Republican and still this is considered a liberal state because of TWO counties,King and Pierce.

            Cheers.

          • I would love to see all the primaries on one date instead of certain states deciding who will run for office. I believe that there have been some good candidates that have been drummed out by the establishment crowd. We need to get the choice by to all of the people, not just a select few.

          • Then vote in the primaries for another person. That also sends a message even if the person has no chance of succeeding (i.e.; greenpeace candidate, socialists, independent, etc) AND write to your legislature and tell them what you want and that you never vote for them again. If enough people do this, they just may consider citizens again.

            Or work for a better America here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TransparencyUSA/

          • I refuse to vote for these clods you suggested:

            “greenpeace candidate, socialists”.., and other destructive parties.

            No I will stay out of it as I have been burned too many times over the years.

          • Mshowerhead has hit the proverbial nail on the head. I agree 100% with what you are saying my friend. I’ve felt like this for a long time. But I’m getting tired of repeating my self. Every time I say things like the things you are saying it falls on def ears.

          • This was a great comment, but the slam against Randy Newman was made me give it a thumbs up. 😀

          • “If more people stepped up and refused to support this nonsense that continues to be put in front of us, there would be no need for a shutdown.” That requires they vote, though. ‘Stepping up’ in a democracy means that you vote. You can’t just shout ‘I don’t like this.’ from the rooftops and expect something to change. Congressional approval is at an all-time low, and they’ve still managed to ignore more than 80% of the country.

            When you don’t vote, it means that the vote of the guy that does vote counts more, because it is a greater chunk of the total number of votes cast. If you think you can improve a democracy by not participating, you’re an idiot.

          • I know it’s common for people to throw around the words ‘stupid’ and ‘idiot’, amongst other insults, when responding to comments on the internet, but I grew up with the value that a man doesn’t insult another man unless he’s looking him in the eye when he does it. Since you can’t, then you shouldn’t, because you don’t know me. If you think that name calling is a constructive way to prove a point, then you’ve added nothing to this conversation.

          • Oh, it’s not to prove a point, it’s to be insulting. If people were even fucking trying to think, I wouldn’t insult them so. When intellectual dishonesty and immoral horse shit become readily apparent, I give people shit for it.

          • What you are saying here is not true. Voting is the illusion of choice, and by doing it, you delude yourself into thinking that you’ve done your part, but you’ve done less than nothing, by showing your support to a political system, which is entirely bogus. You need to get your own ass out of the seat and actualy DO something about it, Instead of acting like a fool and putting your valuable X on the ballot in favor of one of the two heads of a two headed dragon. It’s the same f**** dragon, and your vote is a joke.

          • Besides Stupidity and Politics you left out MONEY. The only problem with not voting on the lesser of two evils it gives the uninformed a better chance to vote in the bigger of two evils! You can’t get anywhere by not helping those who are trying to pull up the government by their bootstraps by voting for the lesser of two evils. Maybe slowly but surely better things will happen.

          • “Maybe slowly but surely better things will happen.”

            Oh how I wish that were true; then fixing this mess we’re in would be an easy fix.

            Staying positive is great, but doing the bare minimal and hoping for the best just isn’t going to cut it. Every single person has to get more involved and be more informed than they are now.

            Improvement starts with realizing there is a problem. This two-party system just isn’t working. The selection process doesn’t produce the most qualified candidates; it produces the most cooperative candidates. A lie only has power if you believe it. If someone tells you your vote only maters if you vote for ‘the lesser of two evils’, that’s just more bs party propaganda.

            If you want to generate change, you have to be prepared to be the only one standing. You should only vote for the candidate you think will best serve this country, and if his or her name is not on the ballot, there’s a write in section–use it! It’s not a wasted vote; I’d argue that it’s a vote well spent, because at the very least, it’s a vote you can proudly stand behind.

            If everyone will stop voting out of fear, and have the courage to be that one–the one who believes their voice matters–and take that stand, that’s the only way we’re going to see any real change. Even If I’m in the minority, I have no qualms with writing in a candidates name, because I don’t want to waste my vote by voting for ‘the lesser of two evils’…and maybe, just maybe, there’s enough people who agree with me, so we can really send a message to our politicians.

          • If only you could also vote to remove a tally from other candidates. ex. I am voting 1 count for (insert ideal politician here) and voting to remove 1 count from Romney and Obama. Maybe then, we could free ourselves from the corporate funded douche bags we are always stuck with otherwise by countering the popularity contest effect.

          • You’re going to vote for “no one” and “nothing”? Then you’re the problem. Period. The banks WANT you to not vote, moron.

          • Mshowerhead im a fan.. can i vote for you to be next pres.. its called the practical party and your are my lead candidate.

          • You have a third option in voting: vote for a third party. Not voting is silencing yourself, and politicians won’t regard people who don’t vote, why should they? But they do take demographics on what ages/geographical areas vote, and how.

            Even if you don’t think a third party will win, vote for it anyway! Something like 40% of Americans don’t vote regularly now days, if you all voted for a third party, we COULD actually replace the Republicrats or at least scare the pants off them. (source: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49701718/#.Ul7mR2RAS9g)

          • Taking a shit on democracy is excluding independents from CPD-sanctioned presidential election debates without polling a minimum of 15%. Without the support of vast private funds or relative equality in media coverage it will be impossible to obtain those results in opinion polls. This is a self-perpetuating problem that magnifies the consequences of no reasonable opposition. The democratic and republican parties have become so corrupt and polar that maximizing quality of life for the masses and sustainability are no longer key concerns of either group. The primary goals of each party are to tear down the opposition at all costs when not in power and to maintain power when it is obtained. These parties make ideal-driven decisions with blatant disregard for results. There are minimal functional differences.

            The healthcare debate is of such minute significance, in regard to sustained increases in quality of life, compared to banking/financial regulation and federal, specifically executive, authority. If wealth disparity weren’t so severe healthcare would not be so paramount. It’s a distraction, simple as that. While the media has been so focused on healthcare the Sixth Amendment has become null and void, most aspects of the U.S. Banking Act of 1933 (namely Glass-Steagall, intended to dampen the impact of recession, reckless lending practices, and bank failure) have been weakened or completely reversed making former banking superpowers into steroidal über-titans of finance with far too much influence, and federal agencies spy on American citizens essentially unrestricted.

            Your vote means nothing and neither does mine. It is based on lies you are fed by the politicians and their supporters as well as their opponents. Politicians aren’t even held liable for promises they campaign on. Your options are so limited and polar that neither outcome is functionally superior to the other. Our, “democracy” has become completely binary as if the world is black and white, or rather red and blue. The world is not red and blue and until the people come to that realization and act upon it, this joke of a democratic system will continue to spiral downward into oblivion.

          • CHEERING>>> APPLAUDING>>>> …like I have been saying, the only fix, outside of death to the republic, is if a band of grass roots Americans take the fight to the government, by force and with the support of another government who is at their end with American government corruption. The word is to stand up and literally fight the corrupt federal government. Anyone recall this, “…And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the
            protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
            Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

            JUST DECLARE INDEPENDENCE FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and do not comply with the IRS, but you can only do it with a band of men who are backed by another power. …that is how it was first done — time to do it again.

          • And you are apparently unaware of two very important facts. The first is this: We don’t live in a democracy. We live in a representative republic, yet none of the left seem to understand that. The second is that the founding fathers constructed our constitution and the laws governing our government for EXACTLY the problems we have today. To keep petty little tin plated dictators like Barry from a complete takeover of this nation. Too bad you failed your history and government classes, or you’d know this.

          • Another name for a Democratic Republic is a Representative Democracy – our government is a type of democracy.

            “The second is that the founding fathers constructed our constitution and the laws governing our government for EXACTLY the problems we have today.” Are you… Serious?

            ” To keep petty little tin plated dictators like Barry from a complete takeover of this nation.” Who? Obama? You do understand that he was elected the same way every other president was, and that he’s in his last term, right? Somehow he’s going to make the legislature allow him to have more terms? The Republicans in congress have shut down the government over a health care initiative that they invented, but they hate it because Obama liked it. They hate him so much, they would rather the government not exist than him be president. Do you really think that congress is going to re-write the term limit for this guy? You’d be insane to think that.

          • You really are an idiot, aren’t you? Forget it. I’m done arguing with a retard who is trying very hard to be a moron and failing miserably in it. Stop breathing. You’re increasing your carbon footprint and I doubt you have a job to pay the tax your ahole buddy wants to put on it.

          • OR, If you’re still in denial that he’s a Marxist revolutionary, working with Jihadists to attack Western interests, and Israel, like his terrorist fried Bill Ayers, AND are just a useful idiot who thinks he really cares about you. Just look at what Democrats support by funding Al Queada in Lybia, and Syria, AND the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, AND Hamas in Gaza.
            They’re supportive of cutting your hands off
            They have no separation of church and state, Sharia is a political system, as much as a religion
            They believe killing Jew, Christians, and all infedels should be taught in school
            They treat their women like animals, and slaves
            They oppose Multiculturalism while destroying Europe with Multiculturalism, and oppressing everyone at home.
            They kill homosexuals, and pretty much everyone else too.

          • Okay, I have to admit, I enjoyed this post…but I disagree with just about everything you have said and even more so with the way you said it. You have been arrogant, closed-minded, and offensive, and nobody in this discussion is ‘hearing’ you or taking you seriously.

          • You really need to spend a little more time reading fact base news articles and conducting your own research and spend a little less time listening to a paid spokesman spin it for you.

          • You would say that to the guy who digs through neurological and linguistic research articles for a living. *snore*

          • We know this. But when you speak of the President as a “tin plated dictator,” you show that you clearly took drama over history as an elective.

          • Actually, no. But that’s ok. He acts like one, so I called him one. He’s not got quite the power that he wants yet, so in that sense you would be technically correct. Unlike that idiot Mitchell Davis who apparently is too stupid to understand the constitution, the law, or what this nation was founded upon.

          • Apparently you failed you Government AND Social Studies class. There are actually Amendments to the Constitution that say ALL our bills SHALL be paid-no exception, no excuse (for the tea partiers out there). There is also an Amendment that says there is NO Religious test for being President (for the tea partiers out there). So even if Obama WAS Muslim, it’s not a reason to keep him, Constitutionally, from being President. The President was born in Hawaii, which, last time I looked, IS part of the USA. He was born to an American Citizen, which, even if he had been born on Mars, would STILL make him an American Citizen (for the tea partiers out there). I studied law, and we were required, in order to pass the class, to study the Constitution. Please show me where Obama has done ANYTHING that was unconstitutional. Please show me where he has done ANYTHING that has broken ANY law on the books. I really don’t care whether you like him or not, but please show me, don’t just put Fox News crap on here. There are enough legitimate, LEGAL sites to research for the truth. So instead of just slamming “Barry”, please show your justification. Yes, we are a Democratically elected Representative Republic. You ARE (half) correct there. The Dictators are the Tea Party, who are holding our Government and the American people hostage, illegally, according to the Constitution! They are actually violating FEDERAL law and are being Seditious. The Tea Party wants to violate so many laws to get what they want, and don’t seem to CARE that they lost, repeatedly, and now look like bratty children who are having a temper tantrum because they didn’t get their way. America doesn’t negotiate with terrorists. REAGAN said that. Not even Tea Party terrorists.

          • You’re too stupid to debate with. I never mentioned the asshole being a muzzie or not, you did. I never said a word about him being not American, YOU did. It appears that assholes like you can spout whatever bullshit they want, but anyone who disagrees with YOU is obviously wrong. Not in this case idiot. Now STFU, you’re too ignorant to participate in adult conversations. Much like every other retarded liberal.

          • Temper, temper! My aren’t we touchy! So you cannot show us on a legitimate site what you are saying? That seems to be the case when people ignore the question and go straight to the ugliness. I didn’t call you ANY names, but apparently, your mother brought you up WAY differently than mine did. I asked for legitimate PROOF of what you said. I STILL haven’t gotten that. Apparently all you can do is name call (ie tin plated dictator, muzzie, stupid, retarded liberal, idiot) in lieu of offering anything substantial to the conversation. Put your money where your mouth is, big talker, or STFU! See, my Mom raised me with manners, but she didn’t raise any fools. BTW, in a debate, facts are exchanged, so apparently it isn’t ME who is …..

          • Down-voting everything Conservative NOT Racist says because 1) it’s all garbage 2) I don’t think you understand what conservatism is and 3) you probably are a racist.

          • So you plan on re-writing current law to make Obama not a citizen after the fact?

            You’re not asking me to pretend you’re not racist, are you?

          • No, many of our forefathers had predicted the problems today. Many had worked against others to stop the government from forming the way it did. Due to the corrupted of then attacking the sensible, we are exactly where the sensible had predicted America would be if it continued the way the majority wanted it to become.

          • You’re lack of actual knowledge of history is……to be expected. And as usual, is appalling in it’s completeness. Go back and try again little zombie sheep. How’s that kool-aid tasting lately? Dumbass.

          • “That type of thinking is exactly what lead to the shutdown. If that’s not taking a shit on democracy, I don’t know what is.”

            Actually, endlessly voting for the Lesser of Two Evils™, mostly by progressives, is what’s got us to this point. The “center” has shifted 20 degrees to the right in the past 30 years thanks to the DNC wing of the Democratic Party. So now you have a Democratic president expanding wars of choice, drone killing children, creating assassination lists, expanding Patriot Act, and pushing through a law that funnels money into private insurance companies. “Lesser of two evils”, not people refusing to lend credence to the circus, is what has brought us to where we are.

          • I am neither. So, present an argument that I’m wrong. And if you want to be taken seriously you’d be well advised to turn down the ad hominems and turn up the logic and the facts. I made a series of assertions. Refute them with logic and facts. Blasting people as prats and idiots and daft isn’t doing much for your side of the debate.

            Has there or has there not been a 30+ year shift of the center towards the right? Has there or has there not been a relatively flat voter participation rate over that same time? What evidence do you have to support the notion that more progressives than conservatives are avoiding the voting booth? Because in order for your argument to carry water, that it is a lack of voter participation that can be blamed for the state having been taken over by corporatists and financiers would be if liberals and progressives were absent in greater numbers than conservatives.

            Not participating in the pageantry of the state is exactly like not going to Mass. I don’t care if only shitty, powermad sociopaths are running either the state or the church. I don’t see showing up and participating as a valid way of defeating those institutions. I see avoiding them at all costs and not providing a shred of validity to be a far more effective and morally defensible method.

          • First, learn the difference between an ad hominem and an insult, dumbass.

            So, you think that not voting will somehow make a difference in a system where laws are reformed by people that vote and people that are voted in? How do you not understand that not participating in the system gives you no power in the system, not more?

            The nation has been shifting more to the left (socially) over the past century. The last 30 years are no different.

            “Because in order for your argument to carry water, that it is a lack of voter participation that can be blamed for the state having been taken over by corporatists and financiers would be if liberals and progressives were absent in greater numbers than conservatives.”

            No, in order for my argument to carry water, it must be true. Not voting means you don’t get a voice in a democracy. Voting means you do get a voice. That voice can be trumped, or ignored, but it actually exists at some level when you vote. If every one of you non-participating dolts actually voted then we’d have had far fewer idiotic politicians. A nation either collectively chooses better and better politicians with time, or worse and worse politicians.

            Obviously, money needs to be taken out of politics as it currently functions as a form of voting that completely cheats the system. If you think so too, vote for the candidates that agree with that position, OR IT WILL NEVER CHANGE. We have a system where political revolutions can start anywhere, but only have any wieght if there are enough voters that agree with whatever position to pick laws and politicians that agree with the position.

            We need money out of politics, we need to replace the EC with a FPTP voting system, we need to use the shortest split-line method so we can actually eliminate gerrymandering, no shit. But opting out of the system of change prevents you from changing the system. If you care about fixing the system, you can’t throw it out the window- you have to swap out the bad parts and eliminate redundancies.

          • Actually Gerrymandering has had more of an effect on who is or is not voted in than whatever you are suggesting.

          • Teresa, the only thing I suggested was that my non-participation in the voting process was not an act of petulance or naivete. If anyone wants to have a rational conversation about the tenets of voluntaryism I’d be happy to have that conversation but that’s outside the scope of what I was initially responding to. That said, I agree with you that gerrymandering is a huge problematic part of the process but I ask you this: Who is doing the gerrymandering? Elected members of the legislature! So as long as both major parties see a benefit in gerrymandering (and they do) the likelihood of it being done away with via some legislative act is about nil. Power doesn’t work that way. Power is self-interested and will never work towards its own abbreviation.

          • “Teresa, the only thing I suggested was that my non-participation in the voting process was not an act of petulance or naivete.” Right! Ignorance is also an option.

          • If MShowerhead chooses not to vote or to vote for someone other than the official nominees of the Republican or Democratic parties, that’s not sh*ting on democracy, it’s upholding it. MShowerhead is letting his (or her) voice be heard instead of voting for whatever bs candidates this failing two-party system is producing.

          • Someone steps up and earns your vote? Here’s the deal. We have a two party system because of the media and because of special interests and banks. We have over 20 registered parties in this country, about 5 of which are pretty viable. Not voting is giving up a privilege provided to very few people in this world. The two parties hand pick who they want us to vote for and they spend BILLIONS getting that person elected via ad campaigns and telling us anything to get elected.

            So what I did, is get out and meet the candidates BEFORE the primaries. I asked questions, listened to their responses and then went out and worked to get my person elected. It actually worked. My person was not supported by their own party. Their party supported a career politician that could only run attack ads against my person. We did research and found that those ads were false. That made us work harder for our candidate and guess what? He won the primary and went on to become our senator and we love him. He is hard working, intelligent and does what we wanted him to do and we are proud of him.

            It doesn’t take that much time to get involved…. you have forever to live with not voting and getting people like we have today. McCain, Pelosi, Reid, McConnell, Waters, etc. These people are unfit to lead and if people would get involved in primaries and choose their candidate intelligently, then maybe we can get them out.

          • I applaud you right NOT to vote. The guilt trip that is played on those who don’t vote is just a ploy to get uniformed voters in the mix. I’ve heard it many times in conversations both liberal and conservative, it’s usually followed by a lengthy dissertation about who or what they should be voting for. Uninformed voting is like choosing from a chocolate assortment, you have no clue what you’re going to get, you may love it, like it, hate it, or spit it out in disgust AFTER the choice has been made. The question “Did you vote?” should never be asked of anyone. Voting, or not voting, is a right and a choice in a free democratic society, not an “I voted” medal to be earned. When someone is going to vote, my hope is that they’ve informed themselves, no matter what they think their belief system may be. (Basic economics might be a great place to start) I’ve heard it said that “If you don’t vote, you’re part of the problem”, I believe if you vote for something you have no clue about, you’re part of the problem.

            Opting out when someone is informed doesn’t really help much either. A non vote isn’t really a vote, even if you’re disgusted with the process as a whole, it really only serves those who eventually win. Vote what you really believe and are informed about, even if it’s the person or idea least likely to win. If one doesn’t believe in a particular person or thing don’t tick the box, just make sure you can sleep at night with the choices you make.

          • While I agree, in part, I do believe every eligible person should vote. BUT having said that, I also feel it is incumbent on the person voting to educate themselves before they actually enter a voting booth. I personally don’t care WHO people vote for-that is why we have the privacy of a voting booth, I DO care if you don’t vote and then try to demonize me because I do, or try to demonize the person elected. If you don’t vote, you have no RIGHT to complain about who actually made it into office. Please vote your INFORMED conscience. It is none of MY business WHO you vote for.

          • While I agree with you that we all need to get off our duffs and do something….I will also say you are missing the real foundation here. If you build your house on sand to what avail is that? We have to (individually) return to our foundation of Faith by repenting of the great many sins we have allowed into our lives and then and only then can we begin to fight the battles that lieahead of us. If we are strong individually then we will come together as a power of unity that no man can mess with. Maybe then there will be some guidance, some wisdom, some Light that will lead us out of the darkness. All of these issues discussed are because WE allowed them to happen in the first place. WE allowed God to be thrown under the bus and what was in the closet to become our ruler. KNOW YOUR ENEMY first. If you don’t know who you’re fighting you will never win. It is going to get worse before we return to God and realize our sins is what got US here in the first place. I totally agree with the banks and money being the root of all evil and how do you fight evil? Send out the weakest ones to do your battle? We can’t even call EVIL for what it is let alone recognize it anymore. Why is that? The closet is ruling our lives and telling US what to do. And don’t look for any serios answers from our churches either. What America is going through right now is only a microcosm of what the Catholic Church is going through. “When you see corruption in the high places, know that the end times is near”. Our leaders have failed US and failed to lead. Now it is up to US to reclaim what we believe in.
            GFCandinthatorder.wordpress.com

          • I am not missing anything, but don’t talk oranges in a conversation about apples. America, being founded by people who were looking for a place to practice religion freely, makes it clear that there’s a separation between church and state. If you want to talk about God, you do it in your church, church groups, or conversations with fellow believers. Understand, your beliefs are your beliefs and, while you’re entitled to them and I won’t judge you for having them, you have no right to sling these ideas around like they are 1) the absolute truth and 2) everybody should be agreeing with you. I’ve read your book and I’ve read Harry Potter. Some people speak in gospel, others speak in Klingon.

            And I have no sympathy for the trials and tribulations of the Catholic Church, a business (yes, a business) with more power and money than any other business in the world. They have the money to cure hunger. Their leaders have the ability to inspire, yet they choose to… well, you’ve read the news.

            The definition of faith is ‘a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.’ You can read that again if you’d like. Remember, the world use to be flat.

            Again, no judgement for having your faith…. the world is messed up and everybody needs something to keep them going. Just keep church talk in church, because it doesn’t solve real world problems.

          • You say you are not missing anything! Yet you have no foundation at.all, nothing to base you principles on, nothing to base your morality on other than your intellectual thoughts. And how did you come by these thoughts? A big bang? Self? So if you do not believe in a Gold then you must see yourself as a god? Or temporal deity of some sort? I am not ridiculing you here I want you to answer the questions honestly. If you don’t know then say you don’t know.
            I hear anger in your tone. You sau I have no right to speak in my religious way? Excuse me but by Constitution I have as. Much right as you do to speak my mind as well as you do. Would you just love it if we all dissapeared and went away? Well that will never happen. I am not slinging anything. It is not my book you say you have read. Though parts of the good Book may or may not have been changed it still serves as more of an Historical documentation (trying to be destroyed by so many disbelievers) of so much information including the Life death and Ressurection of Christ. I am not trying to convince you of anything. Your theories and ideas have nothing to back them up. It is far easier to believe and yes have Faith in what Christ teaches us than what you do. You are a lousy gambler at that. IF I’m wrong no biggie, if you are well you lose for an eternity. If I pray for you it is not to “make me feel good”, you just don’t have the eyes to see what Christians believe in nor do you want the Truth. Truth is not something can really fathom. TRUTH AND Faith go hand in hand. There are more historical evidence to believe in my God than what you believe in. See that’s Truth that you will never see because you are not searching for the Truth. BLAME GAME. How can one have a conversation, intelligent one, with anyone who will not honestly Searching for Truth. It can’t happen. Yeah the gun is bad cause it kills people right? No, man is of fallen nature and man pulls the trigger. Is that Gods fault? Because he created man with a free will that separates us from the animals? Amusing thought. Yes you can blame much on the churches, they are of fallen nature too and have failed to lead there flocks, is that God’s fault or mans? Oh right you don’t believe in God. Well then I think you cannot choose between what is good and what isn’t? Ultimately you can’t. Yes we must be just a higher form of animals! That’s the most ridiculous thought ever. Even true scientist searching for the truth would tell you ddifferent. You are completely wrong that religion has no answer. Love (which is not what you can understand in your way of thinking) is the ultimate answer. Even if that love puts me on a cross to die for my brother. Maybe it is a war, suffering or sharing but never easy. It is a choice. A free will choice made by an individual to give of himself in any particular area for the sake of what is right.
            Be at peace.

          • How is ‘X person said this is good, so it’s good’ in any way superior to actually trying to discern what is good?

            Anywho, your claims of evidence don’t count as evidence. If you have evidence, present it. Not only will you win every rational person on the planet over to your religion, but you’ll get a Nobel Prize.

          • Top Ten Scientific Explantions of Miracle of Sun at Fatima (Catholic Caucus)
            Creative Minority Report ^ | 10/14/2009 | Matthew Archbold
            Posted on Wed Oct 14 2009 15:22:56 GMT-1000 (HST) by markomalley

            The Miracle of the Dancing Sun at Fatima which was seen by 70,000 people on October 13th, 1917 has been written about often. But many people continually attempt to explain away the vision of the sun dancing in the sky at a foretold time.

            Avelino de Almeida, wrote articles for O Século, Portugal’s most widely-circulated and influential newspaper, which was pro-government and anti-clerical at the time. Almeida’s previous articles had been to satirize the previously reported events at Fatima but here’s what he wrote that day:

            “Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws — the sun ‘danced’ according to the typical expression of the people.”
            But secularists have amassed an enormous amount of explanations as to why we should not believe our own eyes. Here are the astounding reasons they’ve amassed so we should believe nothing at all special happened in Portugal that great day.

            1. Stratospheric Dust. Steuart Campbell, writing for the 1989 edition of Journal of Meteorology, postulated that a cloud of stratospheric dust changed the appearance of the sun on 13 October, making it easy to look at, and causing it to appear yellow, blue, and violet and to spin. In support of his hypothesis, Mr. Campbell reports that a blue and reddened sun was reported in China as documented in 1983.

            2. ESP! (Always my favorite) Author Lisa Schwebel claims that the event was a supernatural (but non-miraculous) extra-sensory phenomenon. Schwebel notes that the solar phenomenon reported at Fátima is not unique – there have been several reported cases of high pitched religious gatherings culminating in the sudden and mysterious appearance of lights in the sky.

            3. Mock-Sun. Didn’t even know this existed but it’s worth a listen. Joe Nickell, a skeptic and investigator of paranormal phenomena, claims that the position of the phenomenon, as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun. He suggests the cause may have been a sundog. Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or “mock sun”, a sundog is an atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the “dancing sun”. So Nickell further suggests an explanation for this phenomena may lie in temporary retinal distortion, caused by staring at the intense light and/or the effect of darting the eyes to and fro so as to avoid completely fixed gazing (thus combining image, afterimage and movement). So the people shook their heads and though a mock-sun was dancing. All 70,000? Prety ridiculous, huh?

            4. Dust cloud! Paul Simons, in an article entitled “Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fatima”, states that he believes it possible that some of the optical effects at Fatima may have been caused by a cloud of dust from the Sahara.

            5. Ye ol mass hallucination theory. Author Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, as similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. (Yeah because that happens all the time.) But McClure’s account fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time, or the sudden drying of people’s sodden, rain-soaked clothes.

            6. UFO! It has been argued that the Fatima phenomenon was an alien craft. Of course, either that craft happened to come on the day that the three little children said a miracle would occur. Or the apparitions were all the works of little green men. This all sounds a lot more real than the Church’s explanation.

            7. Solar Storm. A gigantic coronal mass ejection (CME) occurred. Every eleven years our sun goes through a period of solar storms and these storms have been with us for
            centuries of recorded history. Solar flares emit high-speed particles that
            cause the Northern Lights or Aurora Borealis. Well that explains it all right there. Because we all know the Northern Lights look exactly like the Sun dancing. Or not.

            8. Peer pressure. Among a uniform people sharing a particular religious belief, it is very easy for individuals to feel social pressure to conform to whatever is seen as a part of “how things should be”, for “true believers”. 70,000 people. That’s pretty strong peer pressure especially for the people who saw it 20 miles away.

            9. Not everyone saw it. Astronomers noticed no dancing in the sky from all over the world. The dancing sun was a regional event thus disproving it. A quick question would be the fact that it was a regional event should prove that something out of the ordinary happened. If it happened worldwide it would be written off as simply an astronomical event because the whole world saw it.

            10. An Eclipse. These fellas don’t mind contradicting themselves. This would be a very very regional eclipse. Wouldn’t astronomers have noted the eclipse?

            Bonus Reason:
            11. Evolution. This is sadly from Institute of Physics, Catholic Univeristy of Louvain. Evolution has provided us with the infamous “zoom and loom effect”. It tends to appear when the brain is confronted with the two-dimensional retinal image of an object thatis situated at some unknown distance. The brain will then consider the possibility that it could come closer, by performing an illusory mental zoom, where the apparent size of the object isprogressively increased. This results from the fact that evolution preserved the tendency to take into account the possibility of a dangerous approach: a rapid evasive action could bebeneficial for survival. When the “idea” of an approach does not lead to any real danger, the perceived object returns to its normal place. Thus the dancing sun. Amazing. 70,000 people thought the Sun was a predator coming to eat them. When they realized the Sun had no teeth they “zoomed and loomed” it back to where it belonged. That might just be my favorite one.

            So after listening to these level-headed scientists(?) explain away Fatima hasn’t it convinced you to join the Richard Dawkins fan club? Me neither

          • *Yawn* So you have a case of mass-delusion- big deal. If you accept that one is real (which would be stupid, considering that most people when interviewed seem to have seen remarkably different things at different times), then to be fair you must accept all others- but, if you accept all others, then you’re left with multiple mutually exclusive religions being true.

            Until you have evidence that proves these sightings are accurately retold (not that that’s possible with conflicting mutually exclusive sightings), I have no more reason to believe in them than I do in fairies.

            Also, scientists =/= skeptics =/= secularists =/= atheists, you bloody moron.

            Evidence or GTFO. It’s really that simple.

          • Being this is the anniversary of The Miracle of the Sun I want to say. For those who are truly searching for the Truth it is all about and around you for the finding. For the rest of you no Miracle of anything will change the way you are now. The Truth is you are not searching for any truth just excuses to live your lives the way you want too. You are truly blind and I pity you. Historybis full of miracles that you all can continue to try and destroy (why not the Church has down the same) and hide under some bushel basket or kill the messenger and somehow the message will go away. But what you do not recognize is the Spirit of God that is present whether you, the Church, or anyone else trys and destroys it. I am not a label for you to kick around (you can if you like) but a Faith grounded in the teachings of Christ that no church, man or other can take away. History is also filled with fools such as you. Self gods. I am a Fool for Christ! You are a lousy gambler as well!

          • Peer review. Yeah that about sums it up for you. All the peers in the world are not gonna pass one judgement where it really counts. Think I care about that one? You sir are a gambler and a lousy one at that! All your education in the world has given you this form of intelligence? Here is a question for you.What makes man different than any animal? Bet you can’t even answer that one without falling into some fit? After the way you so easily sweep the last one under the carpet with a wishy washy answer. What’s Wong with you? Didn’t witness it for yourself? Everybody is a liar but you and your great knowledge? 70,000 people from all walks of life including ignorant educated fools such as yourself and you just give such an overwhelmingly wishy washy answer.

          • “All the peers in the world are not gonna pass one judgement where it really counts.” Holy crap, you don’t even know what the peer review process is, do you?

            “What makes man different than any animal?” You mean any /other/ animal, right? Apart from our differing anatomies? Civilization, culture.

            “Everybody is a liar but you and your great knowledge?” What I’m talking about is in the same vein as 2+2=4. I can lie, and say that 2+2=6, but my lying about the fact does not change that fact in any way, shape or form. If you have empirical, objective evidence for the existence of a deity then provide it- even if someone lies about it, that does not matter, because you will have demonstrated the fact.

            I find it hard to believe you’re having trouble with the concept of evidence. I’ll use a simplified demonstration for further assistance:

            You say you own a dog. I ask for proof. Now all you have to do is show me the dog.

            Let’s take it up a level.

            You say you own a dog that can grant wishes. I ask for proof. What have to do is make a very clear and non-vague wish in some recorded manner (for authentication), and then have the wish granted, and then not just correlate, but also find a causative link between the fulfillment of the wish and the dog, thereby demonstrating the dog’s ability to do that.

            Do you get it? I don’t have to keep babying you? Fantastic.

          • Just what I expected from your intelligence. Your answer gives you away. “You mean any other animal” Yes you would have to classify it that way because you and all you white papers in the world cannot explain what a soul is. The part which makes us different than any other animal. The part which all of your white papered allies would have us believe does not exist. The one thing that God gave man that makes us different than all of the other animals. Why? Because HE said so. And all the crap you would “theorize” us to believe in holds much less weight and validity than what I have as written history. Wouldn’t it be so nice just to go away. You cannot believe man has a soul, that would bear witness to a higher Deity than yourself. Not possible for an educated fool. You and your theories (which is not in any way math at all regardless what you say or write) keep changing and evolving to fit every new finding. Yet every new finding actually makes fools of you. Evolution, big bangs center of the universe and so on….. You teach it as if it were fact and it is not yet it is taught that way. Fools. And then you discover something new and your led off in another twist of arrogance searching for the one thing you will never find, that there really isn’t a God. Fools. Not an “open mind” at all like so many claim. Yeah you made some discoveries, that make fools out of your previous theories, but do you get it? No you have to keep trying to prove there is no God. That IS your destiny. Such a shame. You have learnt nothing at all from history. You have a “peer Review process” big deal. What you think I know or doesn’t matters not to me. What a waste of the few years you have hear on earth, and then what? You’re gone? Like I said that is a lousy gamble for anyone with “intelligence”.

          • I didn’t say that I don’t believe in God, so your assessment on my lack of foundation is completely wrong. My point is that conversations about religion have no place in conversations about government. That’s why there’s a separation between church and state. Talk about politics in political conversations and keep religion in religious conversations.

          • While I hear what you are saying I don’t agree with you. I am not forcing my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am simply living as one who has a different perspective than you. You are a forceful voice and lay claim to what you believe in based on what you see as fact. I disagree with your “facts” as theory and it certainly is not comparable to math at all. You can’t throw out history and historical documents as irrellivant because of your beliefs and what you want to believe in based on theories and science of probables.

          • I agree. I saw a meme on Facebook that pretty much sums it up-Religion is like a penis. It’s fine that you have one, just don’t whip it out in public or try to force it on me or my children.

          • The Founding Fathers threw God under the bus (wagon?). There is NO mention AT ALL of God in the Constitution. The founding fathers even wrote letters SPELLING OUT that our country was NOT founded on religion. You need to go back and study History. Religion was FORCED on people in the past, who left and founded this country. It was specifically founded to KEEP religion from being forced on ANYONE. There were these things called the Crusades and the Inquisition that kind of pissed people off. Then there is the religious war between the Irish and the British that has been going on for a VERY long time. IF you are truly a Patriot, and not just mouthing the word, you MUST obey the Constitution, which gives you the right to worship ANY way you want to, but it ALSO gives other people the SAME rights. Religious freedom means just that-you are free to be religious OR NOT! And if you are a Bible reading Patriot, your Bible says “Render unto Ceasar that which belongs to Ceasar.” That means, worship the way God tells you in the Bible, but obey ALL the laws where you live. Being a practicing Christian doesn’t mean you can’t also be a Patriot, but being a Patriot doesn’t mean you have to be a practicing Christian. As for the end times-the Bible says we have to have the AntiChrist first, then 1000 years of peace. It also says No man knows God’s time. So exactly where are you getting these “End Time” predictions from? BTW, I agree that we haven’t had leaders or even Statesmen. All we have now are Divas. I guess we get what the big corporations paid for!

          • Stop participating in a corrupt system! Stop voting for the “lesser of two evils” which creates more evil. Democrats and Republicans need to lose their suffrage for 20 years as consequence for taking our freedoms and property.

          • Stop participating and then the people that do participate have all the power.

            It’s not fucking rocket science.

          • No, you fucking cunt. Removing your participation from a corrupt system protects you from being responsible for the evil it creates. Give the system NOTHING! No taxes. It is being done by millions. No allegiance. Nothing. You are to blame if you participate!

          • You are to blame if you are trying to fix the system? Really?

            Let me get this shit straight: you’re benefiting from a society that has produced stable enough socioeconomic conditions that you can have a job, purchase products, travel on roads, utilize the internet, consume safe water and food and drugs, and you do not think you are participating? You benefit from the system yourself; not trying to fix it while reaping it’s benefits is hypocritical and part of the problem. If you do not wish to fix it, then you are an accessory to the problem. There is no way to fix it, other than voting or running for office. Not liking that will not change the circumstances.

          • It is called nullification. The majority do not support the system. The system takes too much and gives too little.

          • Absolutely, Asher, and I appreciate your interest in having a constructive conversation!

            It involves listening and logic. Take the fiscal platform from the Republicans, the human rights and religious-free platform from the Democrats, a portion of the international stance from the Libertarians, and the rest comes from logic. They aren’t likely to be perfect or realistic, but that’s okay… we just need to change the way that we view the system. Even the most basic apps need to be updated for efficiency, and we’ve reached that point with 1) the candidates that we have to choose from and the fundraising and hidden agendas that viable candidates need to compete against, 2) the entitlements/term length/expectations from our elected officials, 3) our two party system, 4) our reliance on the media for information, 5) concentrating on everything other than the necessary issues. IE: Our economy is broken, the baby boomers are reaching advanced ages and the youth isn’t adequately prepared or able to work at a rate relative to the population. Yet somehow, gay marriage is still a conversation, even though the argument against it is a blatant violation of church and state. There’s no place in government for backwards thinking and those who take part in counterproductivity should be immediately replaced. One Nation, One Mission: Progress.

            Unfortunately, I probably lost a lot of people at ‘listening’ (check out my initial post… the one full of ‘rabbles’). I don’t see anything productive coming out of me platforming, and I detest back and forth banter with trolls.

            I would love to make a difference and, to use one of my favorite quotes, ‘be the change that I want to see in the world.’ The problem is that I’m not willing to play politics, so financial backing is tough, and… to play off a previous President… “I experimented with marijuana a time or two, and I did like it. I did inhale and I frequently tried it again.”

            Stay thirsty, my friends.

          • I have a problem with number 4. In the information age, “Ignorance is a Choice” is my mantra. Anyone who gets all their “news” from the media is choosing to be swayed by corporately owned news slanted by the corporation that owns it. I think we are seeing only bullys elected-we no longer have Statesmen who know how to compromise. We have bullies who have temper tantrums when they don’t get their way. We have Divas. America is no longer represented. Only tiny portions of America has any representation at all. I am old enough to remember Statesmen who were able to get things done for the good of America, NOT for corporations.

          • The problem with this is that the Republicans are no more fiscally responsible than the Democrats- they simply want different to conserve different parts of the government.

            Here’s what we need, first and foremost: total overhaul of our election system, replacing it with a FPP system, and using the Shortest Split-Line method to (almost) eliminate the existence of gerrymandering. Crush Citizen’s united like a bug, and remove as much money as humanly possible from our election system- no more lobbyists, etc.

            We also need to take after the Fins and fix our educational system (I don’t know how NCLBH still exists after this long), nationalizing the educational system, but also taking power from school administrators and giving it back to the teachers, and paying teachers better. We might also need to switch to a parliamentary system.

            We MUST downsize our military. If we decided to fight with the next five strongest military powers in the world we would still win. Money should be moved from bombers and ground forces into VA and CIA/FBI coffers, and most of the rest should be used to pay back our debts, or go to other programs.

            Realistically, there is no long-term option for SS in the united states outside of a nationalized healthcare system. We have to grow up and join the EU, Canada, Australia, etc. in having a health care system that makes sense. We must make sure mental healthcare is as well understood and sympathized with as ‘normal’ healthcare. We’re also a hotbed of innovation for healthcare worldwide, and we have to prevent that from evaporating.

            We have to find a way to stop the undernourishment and food insecurity that affects at least 17% of Americans. We have to find a sensible and ethical way of eliminating poverty in this country- which could be at least partially accomplished by the aforementioned reduction in military spending.

          • I to have done the vote for the Lesser. Why? Because the talk show hosts
            Which is as much at fault as any one else. They tell you that person
            has not got a chance you have to vote for the lesser to keep mister evil
            out. Most cases Lesser and Mr Evil lives and dresses out of the same
            closet. I have never voted in the primaries for the same person I am
            stuck voting for in the main election. That will not ever happen again.
            It will not be my fault either, that the nation goes to hell. This is
            the lie they try to toss on you. If every person in this nation voted
            their convictions and stopped listening to those that are part of the
            agenda to get you to vote the way THEY want you to, then this nation
            would be a better run country. My promise to myself is. I will never
            vote for any candidate that has the same fraternal background as those
            that are in office now. I will never vote for another candidate that has
            the same schooling as the majority of Presidents have had. Other words
            none from Yale and None from Harvard. How do we expect any of these guys
            to be different if they have the exact training and the exact
            background as those that have been shafting us for centuries? I voted
            against Obama twice. I knew when he got in office this nation would
            never ever be the same. I also believe and it still could be the case
            there would never be another elected president again after Him. We have to wait and see on that.

          • I completely agree. I didn’t vote either for the same reason. I am also not too into politics due to the fact that both major parties refuse to compromise and listen to each other on anything that doesn’t agree with the “views” of their own party. Call me naive or ignorant, but the only way this is going to get solved is if the people actually take REAL action against these two parties. The reason why I don’t have hope for any change is because people read articles or see videos and end up arguing about it over comments (much like is happening here), but don’t actually physically get off of their butts and do anything about it. It is clear that the majority of people aren’t happy with the government. The only real way to make any change it to actually take action, not bitch about it over comments. But this will never happen since it is the easy and convenient way of trying to get your point across and trying to prove who’s smarter with bigger words than actually solving the problem.

          • i love this.. i am exactly the same way.. i will vote when i believe that person will make a difference for the people. walking dead is part of my prepper option.

          • I think you’re entirely missing the point of the person you commented on. When the person said, “Christ is coming one day and He will set this straight”. He’s not speaking about how to solve the problem which is how you responded. He’s speaking about the Christian belief or concept of “Judgement Day”, the end as we know it…..end times. He’s not speaking about “fixing everything” by praying. Get it? You might not agree with the idea, but that’s what he meant.

          • Your point is as irrelevant and ridiculous and the initial commentator. Since “Judgement Day” is a Christian belief and we live in a country that promotes religious freedom, one’s belief should not be used as a solution to an actual problem. There’s no problems with having those beliefs and I won’t say you’re right or wrong, it just has no place here.

            Notice that I’m not ripping these beliefs like other people in this thread or being insensitive to their beliefs (except for my zombie and hands-tied jokes, which were money). I’m just saying that, like I said previously, religion is apples. We’re talking about oranges.

          • The system and catalysts for change is precisely the problem. The two party bought by wall street and the Federal Reserve Central bank. Won’t work voting is worst than faith in God and praying for change, but you leave that system and don’t participate. But that can mean disaster for working Americans they call them malitia, living off the grid, or even Muslims , Jesus kicked the money lenders out of the temple. but what else is radically necessary to fix this giant too big to fail monster except a greater power they only are accountable to Allah.

          • Your god is responsible for all the pain and suffering that exists, has the power to stop it, but is so evil that he does not.

            Your god is either evil, or fake.

          • Sorry you feel that way – and I pray that one day you will see the truth. God is good. God sent His only Son to die for you and He loves you. He will not force Himself on anyone, no matter how evil they are. God’s Word says His desire is for all to come to Him, not He forcing Himself on you. If you could open you eyes and your heart to the Truth of the Word and allow Him to love you, you would not feel this way. Again, I will pray for you brother and hope you will change your heart for Him.

          • If god would sooner have people tortured forever than give them reason to think he exists, he is evil. If god created infinite punishment for finite crimes, that means he is infinitely evil. If god murdered his own son, he is evil. If god created a system that would make people evil, he is evil. If god didn’t know how to forgive people (which it’s not his place to do, if they aren’t doing things to him) without murdering people, then he is evil.

            If god doesn’t know how to create a perfectly moral system, he’s both immoral and not omniscient. Either god is evil and not omniscient, or he does not exist.

            You are either a follower of the purest evil that could be, or a follower of something that cannot exist. If you think he does exist, that means you opt for the former option, which means you are also evil.

          • Well, I will continue to pray for you Mitchell – Lord, I pray that you open Mitchell’s eyes and his heart to your love. I pray that he will come to know with a personal relationship. Lord, please let him come to know your plan of salvation, that he may spend eternity in heaven with you. Thank you for this opportunity to tell him about You and your love. In the name of Jesus Christ I pray, Amen.

          • You pray because you are either unable or unwilling to actually do something to demonstrate your deity actually exists. If you were to take a course in philosophy, you would fail dismally.

          • If you actually cared about me, then you’d give me evidence of your deity, and then I would believe you. It is THAT simple.

            Instead, you’re simply pretending you care to make yourself feel superior. Evidence, or you demonstrate that your are a liar.

          • The tomb is still empty. Have you tried to read the bible? I challenge you to read the book of John. No more no less. Read it for 30 days. But do it with an open mind.

            I am not superior to you, nor am I lying Mitchell. I have been praying for you. I had others pray for me before my eyes were opened to the truth that Christ was real and He desired a relationship with me. The God of all creation desires a relationship with us. How cool is that?

            I too looked for evidence. I believe evolution. But when you start to think about evolution, it really starts to unravel. If the big bang theory is true, then where did the mass come from that created the big bang? In an explosion, perfect order does not result – only chaos results. Each planet, solar system and galaxy is set in perfect order of each other. How does that happen in an explosion? I won’t get into the creation of everything, such as how did plant life and animal life all come from a single cell amoeba?

            Next, the disciples were real people. The followed Jesus for 31/2 years. Though they followed Him, they didn’t truly believe that He was God Himself that came to live among us until He rose from the grave. Before He died, they just were along for the ride so-to-speak. But once He rose from the grave, you could not contain them. I mean is, the pharisee’s tried to shut them up but they would not. They went to their graves claiming that Jesus was God and He rose from the grave to save their souls. No one, I mean no one will willingly die for a lie. They gave their lives for the truth. They saw Jesus after His resurrection and they died telling everyone they could about it, so others would know that He died for the whole world, to include you and me.

            So you see Mitchell, I am no better than you or anyone else. I am a sinner saved by the Grace of God Himself. I have placed my faith in Him alone. This world may be falling apart, but God is so good that He came down to earth and died for you and me, the wretched sinners that we are so that we can live with Him for all eternity.

            You see, man is the one that brought sin into the world in the Garden. Man is the one that wanted to be like God. God is God. We are not God. But, He did provide a way to Him, by sending a carpenter a little over 2000 years ago to build that bridge between man and God, and He used the Cross.

            I will keep praying for you Mitchell that you may come to the saving knowledge of Christ. Please read the book of John and let God do a work in your heart and I pray that one day we may meet on the streets of Heaven.

            In Christ…

          • “So you see Mitchell, I am no better than you or anyone else” Wrong. You are better than Hitler and Stalin. I am better than you, for not being a sexist, homophobic, thoughtlessly-credulous sycophant to a malevolent falsehood that has caused more death and suffering than anything else in the (actual) history of the world.

            You are also blatantly lying about believing in evolution and the Big Bang, which is why you cannot accurately relate them. This, again, makes you evil according to the Bible.

            “I will keep praying for you Mitchell that you may come to the saving knowledge of Christ. Please read the book of John and let God do a work in your heart and I pray that one day we may meet on the streets of Heaven.” Again, you’re ignoring the bible. According to the Bible, that makes you a servant of Satan. You are the second most evil thing that exists in your belief system.

            You have repeatedly assailed me with claims, but have yet to put forth any actual evidence.

            This is what your religion has done for thousands of years: killed, raped, tortured and pillaged to avoid one incredibly simple act: demonstrating your claims to be true. If you cannot provide evidence for your deity, you are both untrustworthy and in violation of 1 Peter 3 (actually, you’re already in violation of 1 Peter 3).

          • You say you are “better than you”, but whose standards of better are you using? If you are using the Bible’s than why are you saying it isn’t true? also, we all have sinned and are sinners, so yes we are all evil, however, Christ came to save us from eternal damnation. Are we perfect now? NO, we still sin and fall short but now we have Christ who puts His righteousness upon us. He took our punishment. Yes, people kill, rape, torture, and pillage. People do. People are sinners. Christ has offered salvation to us.

          • So if you, or your daughter or sister or mother, were raped violently and repeatedly and the rapist asked forgiveness, you would forgive him? Because of a story MADE UP over 2,000 years ago?

          • God willing yes. See Armish is response to the guy that entered a classroom and killed all 10 girls about 9-10 aged from memory. The same day soon after the event they Armish community came to the aid of the widow of the man who had killed their children. God willing I would forgive all.

          • Shame your silly imaginary friend didn’t teach you to read or spell. My name isn’t Mandy and it’s Amish. Education is everything and there’s more than one book to read. Try it out.

          • That is the lie “education is everything” a god, set above the most high god. It is just one of the gods America worships.

          • Is that an ad hominem about the silly friend?

            Mindy I did get name wrong, there was no malice in this. My apologies. Hope no offense was taken.

            Do not think education is sufficient and I am a teacher. Certainly it is essential to flourish. Although that may involve a discussion on what education is … in regards to trying it out you would have to provide a reason for me to have that discussion with you.

          • Phonemics are different from phonetics and I presented the phonemes phonetically as they sound.

            p.s. phonetically Armish is correct 😉

            Either way your point? Or are you just indulging in a red herring?

          • Phonetically, it’s Ahmish. There is no “r” in Amish. And, no point, really, other than to prove that you just used big words you don’t really know the meaning of to try to prove something that you have no other evidence for.

          • If anyone was raped, especially those I know, I would have a terribly hard time forgiving them. I don’t know if I could do it. But God forgave us and sent His Son to take the punishment of my sins. He forgave me, shouldn’t I then have compassion on those who sin against me? It wouldn’t be easy at all to forgive them, but I would try. Sin is terrible, I hate sin, but I love the person just as Christ loves me.

          • what part do you find disturbing? that Christ took our sins, including yours, upon Himself and took the punishment for them? or the part that I would have a hard time forgiving someone even though I have been forgiven? please do explain yourself

          • I find it disturbing that grown people in the modern world still believe in fairy tale mythology. I also find it disturbing that you believe that someone who would commit such an atrocious act even deserves compassion or forgiveness.

          • ok, well I give you another look at this. If the Bible is just mythology than how do you define evil? or atrocious acts?

          • You think a guy murdering his own son (which could not possibly effect you) is a good thing? E-V-I-L.

          • “Yes, people kill, rape, torture, and pillage. People do. People are sinners. Christ has offered salvation to us.” You lose the me as a partner in the discussion, because you have decided to advocate for evil deeds. Anyone that advocates for rape, torture, murder, or that those actions are acceptable is morally bankrupt, and one cannot have a logical discussion about morality with the immoral. I hope that one day you feel the shame you should feel over having made that comment.

          • I am not by any means advocating evil. I am sorry for coming off that way, I didn’t at all mean it in that context. Sin is horrible, and I condemn it. However, Christ has offered to save people from evil. Sin is sin, God hates sin, but loves people.
            With that said, if you don’t believe the Bible, how can you have “morals”? I am honestly curious, please don’t take this the wrong way, I just want to understand what the standard is for your morals? Because if you don’t believe in a higher power, then how do we have ‘morals”?
            Again, please don’t get defensive, I honestly want to know. Thanks 🙂

          • Are you really that stupid? Do you think that a person must abide by arbitrary rules in order to a have a moral system? That unless someone mindlessly repeats what some book says, they cannot be moral?

            The Bible says that you MUST kill me, because I am a non-believer; that you MUST bring me to the edge of town and stone me to death. Will you attempt to follow that command? If you say no, you have morals at some level BUT you are willfully and intentionally acting against god. If you say yes, then you don’t have a moral compass, and you are acting in perfect accordance with your god’s wishes.

          • Before I answer your questions, could you pleas answer mine 🙂 I will gladly reply to yours but you just avoided mine. You say people are allowed to be moral without a book of code, OK, well what is your definition of moral? did you just make it up on your own or have you adopted someone elses idea?

          • God wrote His law on your heart. That is why your heart condemns you when you do wrong. When man continually denies that and goes against it, he ceases to hear his heart, it grows darker and darker. Romans 1

          • And the rest of the story unfolds. Mitchell thinks he’s better than anyone who doesn’t think like he does. Just like a liberal fool. Mitchell, I AM better than you simply for the reason that I have belief, and all you have is your petty jealousy of that belief. Simply because you can’t see, you refuse to believe. In that, you have damned yourself. When it comes to your time, try to remember those who were trying to help you. I don’t think it’ll do any good, but try anyway.

          • I am not better than everyone, I am better than everyone that advocates eternal punishment for finite crimes. I have morals- that makes me better than people without them automatically.

            I am not jealous of your advocacy for eternal evils, or for petty deities that would rather torture people than simply educate the or heal them or construct a fair system.

            You aren’t trying to help me, you’re trying to make yourself feel superior. Feel superior all you like, you are objectively inferior to me and anyone else with a moral compass.

            Sure, try to hurl the label ‘liberal’ at my feet as some sort of insult, but I will pick it up and wear it as a badge of honor. I have compassion for other human beings- you think that makes me weak? So be it. I am part of the progressive movement that ended slavery, that fights for gay rights and women’s rights, that attempts to bring about not just access to human freedoms, but equity of access. In attacking that, you demonstrate you do not care about these goals, these gains- that you do not care about humanity.

            Be we already knew that. If you ever actually cared about helping, you’d just present undeniable evidence for your deity- but you haven’t, and I doubt you ever will.

          • Of course you’d wear it as a badge of honor. You’re too stupid to understand what an insult it truly is. That’s ok, I don’t need your approval, unlike you who apparently needs someone’s approval in order to validate your pathetic existence. Sorry, can’t help you with that. I see nothing to validate, nor am I trying to help you. The only one who can help you is you, and you are far to entrenched in your worthlessness to actually care about helping yourself.

            Psst. Last thing idiot. Faith isn’t about undeniable proofs moron. It’s about FAITH. DOH! But stupid liberals, just like you, are just way to engrossed in their touchy feeley BS to actually understand what they are talking about.

            You should probably stop talking now. You’re increasing your carbon footprint. Wouldn’t want another idiot hero of the left to come after you for causing global warming. SMFH in total disbelief at the ignorance of the liberals……………

          • Mitchell you seem to enjoy attacking.

            Consider this: The “Arab Spring” is yet to be decided whether it is worthing of that name because revolution is the easy part. My point here is that it is easier to criticise, than it is to make something. Remember the actually video substance? Would you be part of the problem or solution according to what you think the Anchor was getting at?

          • The entire new testament is PROOF that somewhere along the road to Damascus Paul found a stash of L.S.D.!!

          • Why on earth would it take anyone 30 days to read a single book of the bible?

            Also, please, do not speak scientifically as if you know anything of science or how our universe was created. You just make yourself sound even more ignorant than you already did.

          • Really Mitchell? You only care because you idolize yourself and/or hate me (paraphrased). This attitude is very human. St Augustine said something like, we all want peace it just happens to be our own peace. But say you are right I cannot see how that does not apply to you by the standards witnessed so far.

            Question though, is maliciousness significant??

          • Good luck with that prayer gimmick – because nothing, absolutely nothing fails like prayer.

          • Man wrote the religious texts (fact)–Man cannot be trusted (fact). Thus man told us what to believe, we do not serve “God”, we serve man. We are only Christian because of the location in which we were born. The Byzantine empire and Ottomans (and many many others) converted others and the “savages” around them, not because they were interested in their salvation, but for many different political reasons (mainly control). Many nations/kingdoms etc., were converted to one religion or another simply because one group got to them first, or another offered more protection, privileges, etc., (Politics). The Catholic Church (and others) used man’s religion, to not only control the masses, but to persecute those who tried to expose the truth (Galileo etc.). I am not saying there is no God/creator/mother/father etc., because in truth, no one can prove either way. What I am saying is that for centuries we have been told what to believe by people that were primitive, cruel, and uneducated. I will not be told who God is, instead I will look for him/her/it for myself and develop my own understandings. The only problem man has with this, is that he/she cannot exploit my relationship with God and try to control me. I have no church to ask me for money so they can perpetuate these fallacies to others. I have no book that tells me that if I explore other options, and research other possibilities that I will be damned to burn in hell for questioning, or I must be killed as an infidel for my lack of blind faith. I can change my mind, search for other answers, and explore/research freely without some uneducated person trying to control me through scripture and guilt. This is where you tell me my God is most likely Satan, and I am damned to burn in hell for life, then leave me some verse to think upon. I will leave you with this: Who really has the free will here and isn’t that the point?

          • Nice try. But you’ve failed every step of the way. The bible was indeed written by man. BUT, and it is a HUGE but, with divine guidance. So please, since you obviously know nothing of what you preach, cease and desist with your nonsense. Of course, if I were a muzzie, I could always sue you to FORCE you to cease, but all I am doing, since idiots like you have taken MY rights away, is ask. For now.

          • There is proof that the bible was written by man. There is no proof that it was written with divine guidance. If I were to write a book today and say that I wrote it with the guidance of your god, would you worship me? Or would you suggest I be committed for suffering delusions? Do you people even listen/read yourselves? You sound like babbling lunatics spouting nonsense about the unicorns and leprechauns.

          • First off, let’s be clear, peer review can have just as much bias as anything else out there in the world today. In fact, there are some peer review journals who remove counter-argumentative sources not because they are invalid, but because it doesn’t continue to push their specific agenda. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/feb/02/hacked-climate-emails-flaws-peer-review

            Second, you have an ongoing discussion about God. The fact that there is no evidence within your reach does not make something non-existant. A child living in the remote tribes, essentially untouched by modern civilization, has no evidence that there is such a thing as cell phones. No one in their tribe has heard of a cell phone. They have never seen or experienced it, that does not mean that cell phones do not exist.

            If you are a sincere, critical thinking, analyst of knowledge, you have to admit that there are things to be known that you simply do not currently know and may never know. You also have to admit that many times scientists are wrong (this is the very nature of the scientific process and the end goal of peer review before it’s been corrupted). In fact, recently, when scientists working with the Haldron Collider discovered they were able to get material to travel “faster than light”, they were perplexed, and handed out their materials to allow everyone to prove them wrong. We are still gaining new knowledge.

            This is where you are falling into an illogical trap. Richard Dawkins is a non-thinking idiot Atheist. The late Christopher Hitchens is a thinking Atheist. What’s the difference? When presented with the evidence for a higher being, an extra-dimensional ultimate source of power (such as is presented in “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist”), Richard Dawkins can’t accept the fact that it could be considered God. Basically he, like you, have major semantic issues with the term God.

            Whereas Hitchens admits that the evidence, scientifically presented, can conclude a higher power or being, and if you want to call that God, then fine, but he doesn’t believe it’s a PERSONAL God. Hence there may be a higher power, but it couldn’t possibly care about anything you do. Presented with evidence, you may speculate, but not draw specific conclusions. Being an atheist in the sense of Richard Dawkins is shallow thinking. Being a speculative atheist who admits that a higher being could exist, particularly as science expands, makes you a real analyst.

            Let’s get to the hypocrisy of what you’re saying. You, with no basis for morality other than what you feel is right and wrong, have determined that God is evil or fake (which I already address as naive). Why is he evil? Because he killed people? I can list dozens of modern reasons that killing is completely justified and rational. Just because you don’t feel it is justified (with no basis for that moral), doesn’t mean that it isn’t. In fact, you may not have all he information, particularly when using a text that has been translated, handed down, and altered for thousands of years. Oh, and probably has had some bias inserted into it. Does this mean God doesn’t exist? No, it means that the Bible may be inspired scripture that tells true stories, but to take everything at face value without knowing the historicity or intent is just silly.

            In fact, if you’re going to decide to take everything in the Bible at face value, then you’re an idiot for even suggesting that God or God’s do not exist, by Christian definition. “Is it not written in your law, Ye Are Gods?”, and this is not the possessive ye, for Christ’s follow up to this term is the explanation of how if the people are God’s, how can they be mad at him for being the SON of God? The Book of Romans tells us we are children of God, and heirs with Christ. “The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.” In other words, humans are Gods. So you saying that Gods don’t exist, when Humans are Gods by biblical definition, is actually hilarious.

            Does God have the power to stop “bad things” (things your moral conscience considers to be wrong, but since morals are relative your argument is already bullshit)? Not necessarily. God can not lie, he would cease to be God. That means there’s a limit he either imposes on himself, or things that he is incapable of doing regardless. Allowing people to make a choice doesn’t by default make you bad, and neither does a punishment afterwards. You are implying that any system with laws/punishment/prison is inherently evil. I’d be interested to see that argument scientifically.

            Eternal Punishment? That can actually be finite. Because God has many different names, one of them being Eternal and Infinite, the title doesn’t have to mean time but can mean simply “God’s Punishment”. That doesn’t mean people will be in hell forever. In fact, the New Testament discusses a man in hell temporarily before being brought out. There are “many mansions in my father’s kingdom”, a “glory of the moon” and a “glory of the stars”, for every star differs from another in glory. It’s validly argued that no one will be permanently in Hell, unless they absolutely choose to be, with a full knowledge of their choice.

            I believe in a God that applies laws and principles based on the people he is dealing with. I believe that moral agency is so important to him, and that he has a far greater view of the eternal picture, that he allows us to do bad things because in the end, it doesn’t matter what happens to us here, it will all be made up. And I believe that everyone who chooses to do so, will make it to heaven. I believe that atheists who condemn God based on morals are absolute hypocrites, for they have no basis for their morality, it’s merely how they feel, and they refuse to accept the Bible for what it is. And to be fair, most Christians fail to accept the Bible for what it is.

            Go read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” and you’ll see the evidence’d argument for God’s existence. And if you need additional help – when presented with two conclusions, the simpler one is usually true. An eternal being orchestrated the creation of the trillions of planets and billions of galaxies we know of, or ‘nothing happened to nothing which happened to explode nothing into everything in the universe’. Take your pick — with our current knowledge, and growing knowledge, I know which one seems rational to me.

          • That you do not understand how to differentiate reliable peer-review from unreliable peer-review doesn’t magically make the reliable peer-review unreliable.

            “Second, you have an ongoing discussion about God. The fact that there is no evidence within your reach does not make something non-existant.” You’re right. However, THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK SOMETHING EXISTS IF YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR IT. (That’s only the sixth or seventh time I’ve repeated that on this thread.)

            You know what proves science wrong? Science. You know what proves god right? Nothing. Nothing now, and nothing yet. If you have evidence, present it, and stop trying to cheat logic.

          • Pretending my response wasn’t cogent and still not presenting any evidence is sooo much easier than demonstrating you’re right- yet, it doesn’t make you any righter.

            “Go read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” and you’ll see the evidence’d argument for God’s existence.”

            Just cite the evidence. Ta-dah! Simple concept.

          • Pretending that I don’t understand what you read doesn’t magically disappear my rebuttal, any more than it magically make it okay for you to not identify evidence and pretend you have identified evidence. If the book you reference has evidence, reference the evidence and not the book.

            Tell me: why are you avoiding evidence like it was the plague? If you have it, present it and be done instead of adding the claim that you have it to the long list of your claims.

          • Um, I responded once, when you clearly hadn’t addressed hardly anything that I said. And you keep changing your responses. So it’s hard for me to respond to your issues. Wow.

            Go do some research. Obviously you haven’t done it, and are making a claim. Continuing to ignore the evidence doesn’t make you magically correct, no matter how much you try. Like many atheists, you ignore what may contradict you and try to make the other person silly. Yet, you can’t contradict my arguments, you claim I don’t present anything. Whereas you simply haven’t responded to the arguments that I completely destroy you on, and briefly respond with clarification for others.

            Since the Hitchens quote is part of a debate deep in a video, I’ll give that one to you. Dawkins quote about a species potentially planting the seeds of life on Earth but not calling them “God” is widely available. But here’s Hitchens:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVZnwZdh-iM (36:20)

            In fact, he himself says you are a dumb atheist, and that a real atheist would be skeptical about such a claim but not be able to make a final claim because there hasn’t been solid evidence.

            Telling me to give you the information instead of studying it yourself shows the depth of your study and knowledge. I’ve given you a source that will be able to address it better than me regurgitating, stop being lazy.

          • Maybe you’re not paying attention: not accepting a thing exists until there is evidence to believe it is logical. Present some evidence, and I’ll believe in your deity.

            “Yet, you can’t contradict my arguments, you claim I don’t present anything. Whereas you simply haven’t responded to the arguments that I completely destroy you on, and briefly respond with clarification for others.”
            “Continuing to ignore the evidence doesn’t make you magically correct, no matter how much you try. ”

            I’ve been asking for evidence for a god, you said you had it, and you failed to actually provide it. What more of a response would you like? Actually direct me to some evidence. A book by a philosopher =/= scientific evidence for a deity.

          • According to Hitchens, it’s not logical. That’s what you aren’t understanding. He doesn’t know if God exists, he hasn’t seen convincing evidence.

            You assume God doesn’t exist because you haven’t seen evidence.

            One is logical, the other is not. The book, and each of the arguments in “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” covers scientific theory and how it points to an ultimate power. You can’t even do basic research, can you? I’m providing the evidence for you to study, and YOU ARE LITERALLY CHOOSING TO REMAIN IGNORANT AND NOT STUDY IT. LITERALLY. Listen to yourself. You are not being remotely scientific.

          • According to Hichens, it is- and what is illogical ‘according to’ anyone is irrelevant. (Don’t think I didn’t notice the argument from authority). Logical is logical, irrespective of one’s opinion. I do not believe in things that do not have evidence. You don’t believe in fairies, or unicorns, and that is not illogical. What IS illogical is to say that a thing CANNOT be true unless you have evidence that it cannot be true. I have seen no sufficient evidence for your god- nor has the scientific community. If that changes, I’ll believe in it (not worship it, because I’m not immoral, but believe in it). Moreover, near-every scientist will, too.

            If there is scientific evidence in the book of a philosopher, then it came from somewhere. If you have read his book, then simply site the articles he used- they’ll be in the back, under ‘citations’ or ‘sources’ or something to that effect.

            “covers scientific theory and how it points to an ultimate power.” Yet, physicists disagree with him (and more importantly, they disagree because of science). Kind of the ultimate problem with pointing to people’s opinions instead of research is that opinions aren’t in any way based on fact. He thinks that what is known about the universe points to a higher power- so what? What evidence is there?

            “You can’t even do basic research, can you?” Ironic, coming from someone that does not understand how citation works. Let me help you: if you site a book in lieu of evidence, you don’t get to be taken seriously.
            Try presenting evidence again, and this time don’t be intellectually dishonest, and don’t try to cheat by providing something that may-or-may-not-contain-evidence-you’ll-just-have-to-buy-the-book-to-find-out. Yes, this means that you MUST cite peer-reviewed research and must NOT cite some form of commentary.

          • Hitchens has authority, and argument from authority is oftentimes valid. Hate to burst your little internet bubble where people throw fallacies around to make themselves sound cool. I’m curious what makes you have more knowledge or authority than him? What are your credentials?

            Why don’t you grab the book yourself and check the sources? As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m not going to make the arguments for the author. He covers it. In fact, he’ll probably engage in a discussion with you if you’d like. Now who is not using sources? You just told me that scientists disagree with the book, using science, and provided no citation…Thanks for proving to be a hypocrite again. Would you like to go back to your moral relatively and the hypocrisy of claiming God is evil? Or continue down this road providing evidence for arguments I’m not presenting?

            I remember when I thought it was cool to be an atheist. Then I grew up.

          • I don’t know what to say. This is a level of cognitive dissonance I’ve not often encountered. If hope, one day, you decide that reality is more important to you than the comfort of your Iron-age myths.

          • I hope, one day, you realize that the atheistic path you’ve gone down is one of close-mindedness, the same that Dawkins has done. You can be an Atheist and be smart, or you can be an Atheist and be dumb. Do actual research, don’t depend on someone on the internet to present arguments from information that you can view yourself. The fact that you’d prefer someone on the internet to the actual source is indicative of your intelligence.

            Best wishes in your future. I’m glad someone was able to rend you speechless.

          • And you certainly must not have a soul either. BECAUSE YOU don’t believe in one. Now is that an iron age myth? If you did then you must believe in a higher Deity than yourself and you said it yourself. No proof so it doesn’t exist.

          • “If you did then you must believe in a higher Deity than yourself and you said it yourself.” How did I miss that?

            Instead of arguing that there is a soul, provide evidence that there is a soul. It’s easy- well, it’s easy if soul’s actually exist. If you can’t provide evidence, then no amount of blather will make me believe you. Peer-review or GTFO.

          • This is probably one of the most simplist for you to perceive. Yet I know you will just sweep it under the rug because you have to or your life is a total lie. And yes Pride will keep YOU from seeing any Fact or Truth at all.

            One of the most striking proofs is documented by the renowned father of modern neurosurgery, Dr Wilder Penfield, in his book The Mystery of the Mind.  Let’s consider one of his many experiments, paraphrased here without the technical jargon for easy understanding.

            Dr Penfield set up a high-tech system to observe the brain activity of a subject, who was told to do simple activities like raising his hand. When he raised his arm, a certain part of the brain was activated and the subject described the event as: “I raised my arm.” When he brought his arm down, that part of the brain was seen to be deactivated and the subject described the event as: “I put my arm down.”

            Then Dr Penfield, using state-of-the-art technology, artificially activated that part of the brain and the arm rose up. The subject described the event as: “My arm went up.” Dr Penfield specifically asked: “Did you raise your arm?” The subject replied with full certainty: “I didn’t raise my hand. My arm rose up by itself.” When Dr Penfield deactivated the brain and the arm went down, the patient described: “My arm fell down; I did not bring it down.”

            This simple experiment had profound implications: in both cases, the brain was activated to raise and lower the arm. But in the second case, Dr Penfield, an external agent, was activating the brain.  Who was the agent activating it in the first case? In both cases, the brain was serving as a machine to transmit the intention of an agent. In the second case, it transmitted Dr Penfield’s intention. In the first case, whose intention did it transmit? Could the mysterious agent be the soul? Dr Penfield had started his brain research with the explicit intention of disproving the existence of the soul, but after conducting experiments like the above one for forty years, he came to an unambiguous conclusion: “The brain is a computer, but it is programmed by something outside of itself.”

            Now I wonder what that could be. Reasonable enough. Intelligent enough. And not that you show any care or anything but you are a very rude individual and I certainly hope there is something that brings you peace other than self gratitude.

          • The brain is ‘programmed’ essentially by evolution, and then by sociological factors. Neuroscience has demonstrated that the brain orders that brain to do things based on stimuli. We know enough about the brain to fake and/or replicate many of these stimuli in environs where they would otherwise not exist. You demonstrate a lack of basic understanding of neuroscience. (What else is new?)

            Warning: do not try to tell me something is attested by neuroscience that is not. I’ve taken courses on neuroscience and I understand a much greater than average depth of terminology. Go ahead and use the technical jargon. The challenge to present evidence for the notion of a ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ is one that I’ve never seen anyone even try to answer without either avoiding providing evidence or transparently lying (though the lies may be less transparent to someone ignorant of the subject matter- I don’t know).

            I am rude to you and those like you because you are promoting intellectual genocide, and your religion has caused more suffering and slaughter than any other group- and continues to do so today. If you had a moral compass to speak of, you would be repulsed by the notion of thought crime and genocide and torture; instead, you extol what you believe to be the being that is ultimately to blame for all of that, thereby extolling those evils.

            Back to the topic at hand. I’ll say it again: present EVIDENCE, not COMMENTARY. If you cannot, then ADMIT it like an HONEST person.

          • this is why lay-people should refrain from reading research articles that they do not understand. our understanding of the internal workings of the brain has advance significantly since dr penfields era… to say the least.

          • And you/your intelligent community is not searching for any truth. You already have preconceived ideas going into your research with the intention (just like Dr. P’s. originally) to disprove there is no God and no soul. Your non “lay-people” referance speaks volumes. If it wasn’t for us you would all be rulling the world your way with your teachings of what you consider truth to be when it is actually biased. Don’t try and tell me it isn’t, you are not ruthful at all. I was raised going to school being taught about your walking fish. Blind fools you are! Trying to tell us about the soul from which you are in total darkness and will continue to be.

          • @deanna,
            You only prove the point with this foolishness. Adaptation of species and you came from a line of monkeys, as you already know, are two completely different lines of your belief system. So your internal “workings of the brain” need to be reworked (for the sake of your followers) once again. You know take that quantum leap FORWARD…..lol.
            Unlike your community, I am not a follower/committed to any institution. What I have you cannot posess, you have not the capacity within your soul (yes you have one whether you choose to or not) to obtain it. It comes from Something that your class does not believe exist. tch….such a shame….and then you die….and for what huh? You’re a lousy gambler!

          • “You only prove the point with this foolishness.” emotional appeal. “Adaptation of species and you came from a line of monkeys, as you
            already know, are two completely different lines of your belief system.” this statement belies your lack of understand of the theory of evolution… no one will seriously claim that we “came from monkeys” but that monkeys and humans had a common ancestor roughly 25 million years ago. those on the religious end of the spectrum have a vested interest in making distinctions without a difference in an attempt to distract for the fact that in all of history for all natural phenomena and localities that supernatural explanations have always failed and have been replaced with scientific naturalistic explanations.

            your claim that a soul is somehow independent from a mind is simply not supported by the evidence… im sorry but when a simple 2 micron incision in your temporal lobe can make you a completely different person within hours… your idea’s that a persons being is somehow separate from their physical form is laughable.

            but if you have any evidence with which to support your claims by all means present away. though lastly… pascals wager? really? you base your faith of the idea that you can fool a “omniscient” entity that your solipsistic belief and faith are worth the roughly 60-70 kilo’s of carbon oxygen hydrogen calcium and phosphorus? is that the best you can do?

          • What you call “emotional appeal” (An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious. ) is actually something you should know all about! Your form of reasoning and your form of teaching is exactly that “:emotional appeal”! You teach, as though you know or have the “facts”, like this is law. Though you don’t have the tying “facts” to back yourself up. When “God” (superior being or what ever you choose to call God since you say He doesn’t exist) allows man to find “facts” that point straight to an organized intelligent path you have to completely reject that (or you could not claim to be scientist) and come up with more foolishness that is in fact harder to believe in than what I now already possess. Yet we are expected to treat as “fact” your theories? No it is clear who is in need of the “emotional appeal” here. Oh and BTW your “understanding of the theory of evolution” is perfectly plausible …as a theory for those who need to follow your RELIGIOUS beliefs! Unfortunately we do not bow before thee and thy theories. And as for the “common” genetic make-up, of some 25 million year old theory, that we have related or “common” DNA with come prehistoric brotherhood of cave chimps……wow…….I guess we are are related to H20 since without it we could not exist . You are guilty of your own accusation. I’m sorry however I cannot except your conclusion even though you are attempting to rouse my emotions into doing so because your conclusions are fallacious! As usual! Where have all the good scientist gone that have not been indoctrinated by their teachers and the latest cohorts of doing their best to prove God does not exist!

          • Me not feeling qualified to present the scientific evidence presented in a book is hardly ‘not providing evidence’. You are welcome to read and evaluate the evidence yourself.

            The book covers science, not philosophy, and shows how science points to the existence of a higher power (which leads to a semantic argument about ‘God’).

            You are choosing to be ignorant. Literally. Do your research. I’ve researched your position, demonstrated the faults in your arguments of an evil God and the faults in the logic of your form of Atheism. You are welcome to research those who speak from my side scientifically, I personally am not advancing a scientific argument, just deconstructing yours.

          • That you do not understand how to differentiate reliable peer-review from unreliable peer-review doesn’t magically make the reliable peer-review unreliable.

            “Second, you have an ongoing discussion about God. The fact that there is no evidence within your reach does not make something non-existant.” You’re right. However, THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK SOMETHING EXISTS IF YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR IT. (That’s only the sixth or seventh time I’ve repeated that on this thread.)

            You know what proves science wrong? Science. You know what proves god right? Nothing. Nothing now, and nothing yet. If you have evidence, present it, and stop trying to cheat logic.

            Also, making shit up about Dawkins or anyone else doesn’t make your blather any more credible. Dawkins and Hitchens did not believe in a god because of a lack of evidence- end of story.

            No, my issue with god/s is not a semantic one, which you would know if you’d read through the thread.

            “Eternal Punishment? That can actually be finite.”

          • So consensus? So then based on the U.N. report you view that the global temperatures haven’t changed? Isn’t that an issue of credibility?

          • No, not consensus. Actually look into it if you give a crap, instead of making assertions as to what it is without any idea.

          • The bible claims it is inspired by God and it also says you will think it is nonsense. And yes, I believe there are other writings inspired by God…but they do not have the authority withing them that the bible has. The bible is the word and Jesus is the word made flesh and dwelt amongst us. That is different than any other book. The Constitution is a good example of an inspired writing. totally, I believe the founders were inspired, it was beyond them and their understanding as to what was recorded for the Constitution. But it does not have the authority that the bible has. It has authority because we give it to it…..the bible has authority because God gives it and no man is going to change that. Every believer that puts His faith in it and confesses it and lives by it receives the same authority it has. It is God’s grace that makes it so….and no man is above God. The Constitution can fail…the word will never fail.

          • Ok, I made the statement that “Man wrote the religious texts” Well that is a fact, man did physically write the texts. This is clearly a problem for me as I go on to state that man has proven that they cannot be trusted. This is my issue with the world religions. Now you disagree, you believe that, although man did physically write the texts, he was not alone. In fact he had divine guidance and, God, actually wrote the text through man. (I believe that was what you were trying to say). I would simply say, OK that sounds great, but you really expect me to believe that just because you do? Because someone told you to believe that? Because some book (that I am arguing man wrote) told you to? (Please see above: Man cannot be trusted) Or did God him/herself come down and show you this? Should I believe this because God told you to tell me that God wrote it? What about all of the other holy texts that were written or created with divine guidance, are they just wrong? You chose to believe in yours, but disregard the others? But its clear that you do not think like this. You do not debate like this. Instead you offer nothing more than personal opinion, make generic statements that fail to either push your point, or refute mine. You tell me I “know nothing of what I preach” and that’s it…. No evidence, no exploration, no reason, just these simple statements. You even go as far as to offer instead of reason, threats. Words like “FORCE” and “for now”. Well allow me (a soldier in the 82nd Airborne 3-505 P.I.R. with two combat deployments in the infantry) to inform you, that is just silly. But let’s not sink any lower here and move on. Then you make the statement, “people like you have taken my rights away”. Please tell me, what right have I taken from you? Did I ever state that I wanted to take a single right from you? Just the opposite, I joined the military because I cherish our rights, I would have and will, die for our freedoms, what have you done to preserve our rights? Just a couple hours ago you tried to take a right from a soldier that fights for your rights. You threatened me, talked about suing me, and told me to “cease and desist” because you didn’t like what I had to say. Do you realize how much of a hypocrite this makes you?? Think about that, you disliked what I said, reacted with only emotion (no logic) threatened me, and attacked me personally (called me an idiot). This should be pretty profound for you if you are really taking this all in and able to comprehend what just happened. You are, in fact, what you hate. Your beliefs and actions are not symmetrical, that is the definition of hypocrisy. In truth, you have done nothing more than unintentionally support and strengthened my previous statement. I am not trying to make this personal, just simply looking for my own truth, which was the point to the original post, the point you clearly missed. You are not in favor of any intellectual growth here, so don’t bother wasting my time any further nonsense. (NONSENSE:1.spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense. 2.foolish or unacceptable behavior.)

          • The more I look at your past comments on this site with others, the more I realize just how badly you are in need of some serious character maintenance. You belittle people to the point of talking like a bully and constantly speak more in opinion than facts. When I look at your comments I see a twelve year old. If you are young, then I can understand this to a point, but if you are an adult, there is no justifying this. You are neither a good representation of Christians or conservatives. If I would have looked into your comments prior to my reply, I would not have responded to you at all. I have higher standards than this. Keep your sickness to yourself and go away.

          • Wow, you really are a liberal aren’t you? You took statements that were being used to show you exactly what has been happening in this nation as a personal attack on yourself? What kind of self-aggrandizing little neo-barb are you? Oh, yeah, that’s right. A liberal is just that. Hey, dummy. Read what was written and try not to second guess or twist or change it to fit what you want it to fit. Lord help us, you idiots get more and more stupid as time goes on. Sigh. I bet you believe in global warming and unicorns too. Dumbass.

          • No I am not liberal, and as I already mentioned, you lost all credibility in your posts. You are no longer allow to sit with the adults, go to the kids table, you speak like a 12 year old and you are blatantly ignorant. “One thing you cant hide, is when your crippled inside” Lennon.

          • Do you know what the difference is between a conservative and a liberal? One wants to go forward and the other wants to go backwards. You continue to bash liberals as if they were dog shit on your shoe, but that just makes you look worse and worse. Without going into specifics, both sides have their positives and negatives. BOTH SIDES. It’s just as easy to rip apart conservatives, but I know many who have decent things to say. It’s people like you, who disregard a population of Americans as ‘dummies’ just because you don’t agree with them and are too stubborn to update your perspective, who are the real threat to our future.

          • My second thought on your post is “YAWN.” Same tired crap that idiots like you post all the time. It’s BORING. Probably just like your life. It’s worthless. EXACTLY like…….well, I’m sure you get the connotation (that means “what is additionally meant by.”)

          • 98C is a great MOS!!!! Some Top Secret stuff there! I have a bud that is Military intelligence (Intel analyst) and I can never get him to tell me what y’all do– lol. He keeps telling me that if he tells me, we both go to prison hahaha … Glad to see another in the ranks here! –All the way!!!!

          • we listen… that much i can tell you… after that i gets… complicated. and yea… i could go to prison… for a LONG time.

          • Sure, you would say that. The Muslims say that the Koran was written with divine guidance. Fact of the matter is, since none of you have presented anything but claims and arguments from experience, you’re both equally wrong.

          • “Fact of the matter is, since none of you have presented anything but
            claims and arguments from experience, you’re both equally wrong.” I made in my statement was that: A) The texts of the world religions were physically written by man. (That is a fact, no further evidence required) B) Man has repeatedly proven through history (and the present) that we cannot and should not be trusted; we are downright vile and arrogant creatures at times. To believe in man is absurd, yet another will demand that I trust in man and believe in the texts (This is not just a claim, it is a logical observation, do you not agree?) I then went on to claim that if the above potentials are true, we are most likely serving man instead of this “God” we push. This potential is statistically possible, even probable, vs. the arguments opposition. (Man can be trusted) These truths imply that everyone could be wrong, and everyone should look for their own way as it would be more productive. I then made the claim that the majority of people that subscribe to one religion or another are from a specific geographical location that teaches/pressures that person to believe in one certain religion or another. (I think there are like 40 organized religions in the world?) We have been handed down these beliefs from people in the past. Did the Christians of America all get visited by God, and were told by God, that they are right? Or are they simply taking a leap of faith with their beliefs? Did all the Muslims get a visited by their God and were they told they are absolutely right? Either both are wrong, because only one can have the winning hand, or someone is bluffing here. And if it eventually boils down to “taking a leap of faith”, can one or should one, ever make the case that they are correct? And if they cannot make the case that they are absolutely correct without taking this leap of faith, should they invest everything they have into it with blind faith and expect that others do as well? My Byzantine vs. Ottomans example was to provide some support on just how important geographical location is to any one person’s religious belief vs. actual personal conviction or exploration. It furthers my point that these are not our beliefs. (It also served to expose the politics in the many of the religious conversions of that time, by all religions). Any College course in History (my favorite for that period was the Byzantine, Ottoman, and Roman empires) of that time will support that religions were full of politics and used mainly as a form of control to strengthen countries with resources, currency, and military power. Some groups (and Emperors) even switched back and forth from one religion to another for political reasons, and now in the present day, these geographical locations are only that particular religion because of the actions of those leaders from their past. This is why education is so vital for truth. I then went on to say that my opinion does not imply that there is no God/Creator. Intellectual integrity dictates that I must allow for this until it can no longer be considered an option. That and I am not that arrogant as to think that I could possibly answer that. And yes that does mean that one specific world religion could be right and my suspicions were inaccurate, I accept that as anyone should, even as an atheists may have to accept he or she was wrong. I am just pointing out truths here and making no particular claims other than we should not trust what others push on us. We should instead explore this life with an open and educated mind and seek only the truth through our own devices. “Whatever you do, you must remain nimble in your thinking. Do not become so attached to any one belief that you cannot see past it to another possibility.” CHRISTOPHER PAOLINI,

          • If you depend on God to reveal everything to you then you know that Abraham was visited by God and he believed. That is where it started. God made a covenant with him for many to return to God, to accept the savior Jesus Christ. But he put Abraham to sleep and cut the covenant between Himself and Jesus because then it can’t fail….with man it could fail. Obviously, the Old covenant that was between man and God wasn’t enough…but it did lead men to Jesus, those that would believe as Abraham did. I’ve been a christian for many years and I depend more on the spirit and what He tells me personally than I ever have and the revelation is wonderful…but I know the word, I’ve spent years getting to know who God is and His character and what he would do and wouldn’t do. Without that, the spirit could be God’s spirit or another “spirit”, a lying one…sent to deceive. God’s grace is abundant and He wants us to have it all….but it is still according to His ways…not ours. He is in control…so much more than man knows. The purpose he gives you, He performs..by the counsel of His will…not yours. When we know him, accept Him and what He has done for us…we can’t lose

          • You have a point…to a point. God has always desired fellowship with man. Man has always required, or needed, something more than spirit to spirit which is what we were created. we are created in the image of God. However, God said we were created in their (our) image…who was he talking to? Jesus was always with God. So being created in His image included our earhly body, our humaness…which is not only spirit but soul (mind will and emotions) and it is that part that needs the written word. Now, to dispute whether it is God”s word or mans is something that will only be proved by accepting it by faith the same way we accept christ. Faith first. We learn who christ was by the word and then mix with faith…and we are born again. If you haven’t done that…either by the method God gave us in his mercy (the word to guide us) or by revelation of the spirit that you say you walk by, your spirit remains dead to God because of sin. accepting Christ as the only sacrifice for sin makes your spirit alive again to God as it was before sin entered the world. I know by the spirit of God that God desires what you describe…but the way to get there is by His design, not mans.

          • And this is entertaining for me: you are praying in public, which Jesus EXPLICITLY forbids (Matthew 6:1-8).

            Congratulations: you’re so much a jackass, that even if your religion is real, you’ve locked yourself out of heaven.

          • I know you do not believe in God or in the Bible…however, I would ask that you seek to understand the passages that you cite and use to support your arguments. If you studied them you would understand that they are not at all helpful to your line of reasoning. I’m sorry that your experience with Christians has been/is so awful and I hope that someday you will meet someone who is able to explain their beliefs to you (if you care to know the truth of what Christians believe).

          • ” I’m sorry that your experience with Christians has been/is so awful and I hope that someday you will meet someone who is able to explain their beliefs to you (if you care to know the truth of what Christians believe).”

            My experience with Christians has been the common experience of those that can think the least bit critically. The reason I am no longer a Christian is that I read the Bible- that you act like I don’t know what they mean is either intentional deceit or you’re simply pretending to know anything about the bible. I’ve never met a Christian that can beat me at Biblical trivia- and that’s more telling of your religion than of my knowledge of it.

            If you actually cared the least bit about me (or anyone, really), you’d present evidence for your beliefs. Instead, you spit out the rehearsed holier-than-thou, you pretend you care only to feel high and mighty, and you assume that my position has come about because I’m a dumbass sheeple that bases his decisions on the actions and attitudes of people.

          • Wow! Your anger is so obvious. Just for the sake of your health, you may want to check that. You are generalizing Christians from what seems to be a bad experience. The problem is Mitchell, Christians still sin and make big mistakes. No one on this earth will ever be perfect. We do not have the capacity to be good. So forgive the people that hurt you and learn to love even us. Bitterness will leave you with health problems, it is like a cancer. Do not let it rule your heart.

          • “Just for the sake of your health, you may want to check that.” Anger does nothing bad for health.
            “You are generalizing Christians from what seems to be a bad experience.” Wrong.
            “We do not have the capacity to be good.” So stop promoting homophobia, sexism, slavery, murder, rape, the notion of thought-crimes, etc. and prove it.
            “Bitterness will leave you with health problems, it is like a cancer.” You are lying again. Bitterness is not bad for health.
            “Do not let it rule your heart.” The heart pumps blood; the brain deals with emotions.

            If you want to prove your god exists, then prove it. If you have the potential for good, do something good. You could start by stopping promoting a genocidal myth.

            If your god is real, he is evil. Not that he is- not once has any evidence for the existence of a deity been put fourth, especially by people on this thread. You figure with all the millions of Christians in the world, you’d have managed to get a modicum of evidence for your god. Instead, you create institutions that ostracize and beat and rape and kill those that dissent.

          • The brainwashing you received…probably in college is the lie, not the bible, not Jesus Christ. the deception satan perpetrates to keep people from the truth is the lie.

          • I think you misunderstand how science works, science has never proven anything, it has just failed to disprove. I challenge you to disprove the theory that their is a supernatural deity in this universe

          • Asking someone to disprove something you have not demonstrated is called ‘shifting the burden of proof’. It’s a logical fallacy that’s so obvious it was first recognized over two thousand years ago.

          • You can’t disprove the theory of a supernatural deity. Nobody can say for sure that there is one, but no one can also say for sure that there isn’t one. That is all I am trying to tell you.

          • You’re right! And you can’t disprove unicorns, fairies, dragons, or bigfoot, but that doesn’t make their existence more likely. If you have no evidence provide for your deity, then there is no reason to believe it exists. Stop trying to shift the burden of proof like a misguided four year-old: either provide proof, or do the intellectually honest thing and admit that your belief is unfounded.

          • Still waiting for you to provide any proof that emotions are bad for health, or that your god exists.

          • Creation alone proves God exists. A baby being born proves God exists. The human eye alone proves God exists. The proof you are looking for is a lie of the devil, perpetrated by the progressive movement “that faith can’t be proved, therefore it is not true.” The closer to God I get the more I see Him…in everything. My 7 yr old grandson said it best “I don’t know why people say where is God.” In a sweeping motion he says “He is everywhere.” He has more wisdom in his 7 yr old heart that the most educated idiot in the world. This is why Jesus said “Let the little children come unto me for such is the kingdom of God.” they are simple, their faith is….they believe.

          • “Creation alone proves God exists.” That’s a claim; now, provide evidence.
            “A baby being born proves God exists.” Ditto.
            “The human eye alone proves God exists.” Ditto, and only if god has no fucking idea how to make a well-functioning eye. What’s more, why the fuck would an all-knowing anything put the information processing center on one end of the system, and the inputs on the other end altogether?

            What’s more, god fucked up with wisdom teeth and the appendix.

          • Answered the God question above, but as far as health goes here is an article from US news and world report. I know it is old and that it is second-hand info, but if you really want to know you can do the research yourself

          • “Answered the God question above,” No you didn’t, as I pointed out.

            Thank you for demonstrating you ignorance by using a magazine article instead of evidence- yes, instead of. If this article is based on actual studies, link to them instead. Don’t you know anything about citation?

          • I have no reason to believe US News would misreport information because I believe they are a generally well respected magazine, however I could be wrong. I personally have done the research in the past, however I don’t have time in my life to do it all over again for you. I already acknowledged that this was not the most credible evidence. If you would really like to know what science says on the matter you can do your own research

          • And the lies keep pouring out. You, little boy, are a terrible liar. Try the truth. And stop lying about what you supposedly know. You don’t know anything. You extrapolate from poor childhood experiences where you were probably abused by a person who you associated with Christianity and have held deep inner insecurities resulting in you becoming a pathological liar incapable of accepting that there are things he knows nothing about. Like religion. Just because you’ve memorized portions of the Bible does not make you an expert at anything. It DOES make you a huge fake. And a liberal atheistic troll. Buh bye. And as we say in the south, “bless your heart.”

          • I didn’t say I was an expert: that would be you, lying. However, I have a brain that functions at about an average level. My career is devoted to understanding language, so I have that, too. “You extrapolate from poor childhood experiences where you were probably abused by a person who you associated with Christianity” Again, you’re just making stuff up. You are also evidently unaware of what the term ‘pathological liar’ actually means, and your ability to put words in my mouth and call me a liar for pointing out logical inconsistencies is a demonstration of cognitive dissonance.

            You appear to want to believe what you believe so much that you will forsake even the most basic logic and humanity- you are the perfect example of the average religious person. One should not have to talk to a person like a child to convince them they are wrong about something they don’t even have evidence for, and as you are particularly void of humanity compared to the religious I normally deal with, I won’t even bother.

            You persist in a delusion that you do not question. I cannot force anyone to think critically and those that have forsaken critical thinking cannot be convinced by it. And, those that think critically don’t need people to point out their ignorances for them. If you start to give a shit about what is true, check back. Until then, scream and lie to your dopamine level’s content.

          • You said that your career is devoted to understanding language? A thought for you is symbolic thought necessary in either quantity or quality to join the linguistic community?

          • I am very curious to know what you believe in then. You appear to dislike Christians a lot for their beliefs even though the Bible is one of the oldest and most credible books ever written. “We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty” (2 Peter 1:16). Look at this article http://etoddfisher.com/?p=341. The author talks about how the books written around the time the Bible was written.Many historians and scholars have investigated the validity of the Bible, “The civilisations of Assyria and Babylonia lay forgotten for centuries, recorded only in the Bible and in Greek myths. Many scholars assumed that they were fictitious until 19th century archaeologists dug up the palaces at Nineveh, Babylon and elsewhere, uncovering inscriptions, statues and even libraries, with many exact details of the biblical record being confirmed” (Pickerings and Saunders, http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesus/introductory/isnt-the-bible-full-of-errors.htm). Also, if the Bible was just made up, why would anyone want to write all the things in it? Why would they challenge the religious leaders of that day? wouldn’t they for sure been killed for “heresy” and defying them? wouldn’t the Bible have been destroyed and never copied or believed if just one or a couple people decided to make it all up? Don’t you think people back then wouldve looked it to the real facts of it? People back then would want proof of it just as much as you do, since they lived back then, they would know if it’s real or not. Therefore, the Bible is very credible. here is another quote from the bethinking.org page,”The Dead Sea Scrolls are a fascinating witness to the authenticity of the OT text. Prior to their discovery in 1947, the oldest complete OT texts dated from around AD 900. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to around a century or so before the time of Christ and include many OT manuscripts. The book of Isaiah was found amongst the scrolls and ‘proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. ” there are people just like you who want to know the validity of Christianity and they have found it. I hope this helps. Seriously, let me know what you believe, I want to understand. Thanks!

          • I’m not going to repeat myself again, or answer any of you’re questions, until you answer the questions I asked hours ago.

          • I am sorry, but what were the questions you asked hours ago?I cant seem to find it. I will gladly answer them, because I want to understand how you have your morals

          • Sigh… Since god orders that you murder all non-believers, will you take me to the edge of town and stone me to death, as ordered by Him? If you say no, you have morals, but you are acting in opposition to your god. If you say yes, you have no morals and are mindlessly following your god.

            Do you have morals, or not?

          • Sigh… Since god orders that you murder all non-believers, will you take me to the edge of town and stone me to death, as ordered by Him? If you say no, you have morals, but you are acting in opposition to your god. If you say yes, you have no morals and are mindlessly following your god.

            Do you have morals, or not?

            Also, what evidence for god do you have? Not claims from a book (argument form experience = fallacy), actual, peer-reviewed, demonstrable evidence.

          • maybe you would like to look at this? http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/04/reviews/010204.04triblet.html Even in the Bible, the authors challange the reader to valiadate what they are telling them, “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and “For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty” (2 Peter 1:16). to get to your other question,I have morals. But that is because God has given me a moral code. I am curious to know how you got your morals, for instance, why do you think murder is bad?If morals are just what each person determines for himself, then murder can be good for one person and bad for another. There is either a moral code set by a god, or a moral code set by each individual.

          • Are you even going to try and answer my questions?

            “Even in the Bible, the authors challange the reader to valiadate what they are telling them,” Not in earnest, no. For example: according to Genesis, god somehow creates days before the sun. This is impossible. What’s worse, god somehow creates fucking plants BEFORE THEIR SOURCE OF FOOD EXISTS, which means the food chain would COLLAPSE and there would be no life on planet earth. What’s more, the bible says the earth is flat, and that it the sun goes around IT.

            Is good good because god says so, or does god relay what is good? If god only relays what is good, the god is irrelevant. If good is good because god says so, then your moral compass is inferior to the person that tries to think for themselves and consider what others want.

            I can guess why you will not answer my first question (will you attempt to kill me, because god has ordered you to): your morals tell you not to kill, but god orders, in no uncertain terms, you to murder me. Your moral compass is already inferior to your infanticidal deities’.

            How can god be moral if he created evil (and according to the Isaiah, he did)? The answer of someone that is thinking is: he cannot be moral.

            And you have once again failed to respond to the two questions from hours ago.

          • First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, “rah,” is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as “evil.” The other 232 times it is translated as “wicked,” “bad,” “hurt,” “harm,” “ill,” “sorrow,” “mischief,” “displeased,” “adversity,” “affliction,” “trouble,” “calamity,” “grievous,” “misery,” and “trouble.” So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as “evil.” This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as “calamity” by the NASB and NKJV; “disaster” by the NIV; and “woe” by the RSV.
            Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.
            “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these,” (Isaiah 45:5-7).
            Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause “well-being” as well as “calamity.” Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,
            “And the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” (Exodus 4:11).
            “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6).

            You argument on the moral compass makes no sense because you just said my moral compass is inferior to yours. your argument says that If you can make your moral compass, than I can make my own.s
            God determines what is good.

          • It’s really a bad idea to try to lie to a linguist about language. Why don’t you stop parroting Answers in Genesis and actually think?

            If god determines what is good, then kill me now. Will you now attempt to seek out and murder me as your god has ordered? One word answer, yes or no. If you can’t manage to answer this question, I cannot hold the conversation any longer. You have demonstrated that you do not care to be intellectually honest or even answer my days-old request for evidence, which you should be overjoyed to provide if you have any real reason to believe in your god.

          • also, I realize that I cannot physically prove that God exists, i am sorry. Yes, I do believe He does, if you want to judge me and call me names, then go right on ahead. However, I look at this world and how intricately designed and incredible everything is and I see that something mustve created it all, I mean, like how could people just randomly be made without something to create them? The odds are sooo very slim that even a single cell could be made by chance that it takes more faith to believe that God doesn’t exist than it does take to believe He does. I challenge you to read “The Reason for God” by Tim Keller, it is a very good book. If you have any suggestions for me, I am open to them. It’s just after all my life and experiences, faith in God is more reasonable than to not have faith in Him.

          • Critical thinking philosophy would have you create a god in your image. In other words, whatever you perceive of god according to your own thinking…that is god. Well, man is not supreme and no matter how hard you try, you are not going to change one simple fact. You were created in the image of God. And He is about faith first. He operates that way Himself…and you are created in His image. So nothing else works. Faith is what pleases God. when you accept by faith…understanding, proof as you call it, comes. You want to humble yourself before God, you’ll find the truth. If you don’t want to, you join the ranks of satan…against God. Those are the only two choices. Satan will attempt to keep you blind to the truth…but grace is greater. God will lead you to Himself…because He seeks you, loves you and won’t give up.

          • “Critical thinking philosophy…” That’s not a thing. Critical thinking can be applied to philosophy, sue, but you’re not doing that at all.

            “Well, man is not supreme and no matter how hard you try, you are not going to change one simple fact. You were created in the image of God.”

            If it’s a fact, then you have proof.

            I’m done with this bullshit game. Anyone that wants to engage in a discussion promoting their deity must provide logically sound and scientifically confirmed evidence for their deity- I am no longer willing to try to reason with the people in this thread that have forsaken reason. There is no point. Either provide evidence (not claims) or I have no reason to take your ramblings any more seriously than the babble of toddlers.

          • In the first part of your post you are also using a fallacy known as an either/or or black/white fallacy

          • No, it is a true dichotomy. Just because this dichotomy is uncomfortable for you, does not change the fact that it is an accurate one.

          • You state two possibilities and claim that they are the only options. However, there are other options. Ex. There is actually a God and he decides what is moral and immoral.

          • Well, that could factor in, but I take care to omit logical impossibilities and inconsistencies and fallacies and parodoxes (morality by fiat, for example). Dolt.

          • Jesus never said to murder anyone.. Quite the opposite. He said not to..even to the extent that he said if you have hate in your heart it is the same as murder.

          • A lot of people cite Jesus as the reason that they hate homosexuals. At the same time, many radical Islamics cite the Koran for reasons that they have to kill infidels. No God would would tell his/her creations to kill/hate/prejudice against another one of his/her creations. We would all be made the same if that were true.

            I may not agree with your religion or beliefs, but I respect that you have them and I respect your right to your faith. If you want to discuss this idea, then please respond by sharing YOUR thoughts. Any response that includes quotes from the Bible or calls to an intangible, higher power to dispute or enforce my simple, organic observations, will be ignored and I will not further engage in conversation with you.

          • 2 Chronicles 15:12-13: 12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, 13 but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

            This does not tell us to murder those that do not believe! This states that those that do not believe will NOT LIVE ON after death. In the Christian community we believe in LIFE after death, and those that do not, receive DEATH after DEATH. Only evil can twist such verse to allow murder. I have MORALS that allow me to see the true meaning. We live by a Commandment to NOT KILL, yet God tells us to kill? So God states “Thou shall not kill” and if you do, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, then in another case tells us to kill? LMFAO! As I said EVIL can manipulate the words to suit their needs………

            Exodus 22:20: 20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the Lord alone, shall be devoted to destruction.[a]

            Now you are clearly scrapping the barrel for this one! SACRIFICE, sacrifice WHAT? Time, money,beast? Devoted to DESTRUCTION. Destruction of WHAT? Faith, morals, integrity, life? As I said before EVIL can twist words/sentences to suit their needs/agenda. I would keep these “opinions” to yourself, would not want to world to see you a fool……..

          • Sigh… Since god orders that you murder all non-believers, will you take me to the edge of town and stone me to death, as ordered by Him? If you say no, you have morals, but you are acting in opposition to your god. If you say yes, you have no morals and are mindlessly following your god.

            Do you have morals, or not?

            Also, what evidence for god do you have? Not claims from a book (argument form experience = fallacy), actual, peer-reviewed, demonstrable evidence.

          • I am a believer but you’re argument that it lasted this long must be proof that it is real is a very weak argument. Other religions have lasted far longer that does not necessarily mean they are true

          • I knew it…You are a victim of critical thinking. You and millions. this is why our nation is in such a mess. About two years ago I began to get revelation from God about critical thinking and what it has done to America. It isn’t critical thinking that is a lie…it is the philosopy of those behind it that took it and indoctrinated America’s youth with an agenda that has America in bondage today much as a cult would do to an individual. You were systematically fed an agenda aware to you. You listened to teachers “guide” your thinking to a lie. You think you use your mind, think critically, no you do not. You basically don’t think at all….except within the box the progressivemovement made for you. Wikipedia defined critical thinking as “markist philosophy adapted to fit the 20th centurty”. this is what the definition was when I began to research. Now it has been changed. wonder why that is?? Anytime they have a “code word” and people begin to catch on, they change it. Now we have Common Core…good example. more of the same programming under a new name. Wake up my friend, before it is too late. Think ciritically about the very lie that you have bought into.

          • You reject education and the idea of independent thinking. It’s not that people reject the idea of faith and a higher power, it’s that people like you (those who speak in religious rhetoric) come across as ignorant, single minded, and not present in reality. Heck, sort of like ‘a cult would do to an individual’.

            What… did I just quote you?

            See what I did there?

            #boomgoesthedynamite

          • Shut up. If you think by hiding in your hole and doing nothing is worth a damn thing, you have sorely missed the whole point of Jesus and his life. You, sir, are a hypocrite. You do NOTHING for yourself but beg for God to intervene constantly to make things easier on you. God helps those who help themselves. Something that any conservative knows beyond a shadow of a doubt, while fakes and liberals think that everyone should help them for no reason whatsoever other than that’s what they want.

            Go read the Bible without your blinders. You’ll find many instances where God has intervened, but because someone didn’t do their OWN part, it still fell through. Stop whining, stop soft peddling and start acting like our founding fathers, who knew when the fight had to be taken to the enemy.

          • I am not hiding, in a hole or anywhere else. I am not doing nothing. I am most definitely a hypocrite as is everyone (especially Christians) who has ever walked this earth. Once again I am not doing nothing for myself. I actually have difficulty praying and rarely pray at all unless it is to ask God to let me spend one more day with the woman I love. I can’t remember the verse in the Bible that it says “God helps those who help themselves”, do you mind posting a reference. I do remember some passages where it talks about Jesus dying for those who could not help themselves.

          • Mitchell, the Bible says to correct the fool in his foolishness least you be drawn down in his foolish ways. It also says do not correct the fool in his foolishness least you be drawn down in his foolish ways. Why do you think I would bring that up?

            Consider Mitchell, you did say someone “pretends to care,” I am curious did I miss something or is there a reason that you have knowledge of his motivations or is it an informed guess (assumption). Because you then continue in the same sentence to criticize someone based their assumption of you 😉

            Yeah, lets say you are right, what are some good points about Christians and Christianity?

          • A pleasant experience with a Christian would be less talking about beliefs and religion, and more about sports, the weather, or anything else that’s a real, tangible event. It’s not the religion that makes these experiences awful, it’s the constant need to preach religion. I respect your right to believe whatever you’d like. That respect should be reciprocated, not disputed. *By you, I don’t mean you specifically. Out of all of the religious comments in this conversation, I found yours to be the least offensive.

            To quote George Carlin, “Thou shalt try really really hard not to kill somebody, and keep thy religion to thyself.”

          • He does? I think that is a very narrow interpretation of that scripture. I tend to think it is a little pejorative, do you?

          • I’ll believe that prayer works if you can prove that just ONE amputee has prayed for, and subsequently received, restoration of the lost limb by non-scientific means.

            I’ll give you a response only if you can manage that. If you cannot, then you are wrong. If you don’t find proof and cannot admit you are wrong, then that is proof that you do not care about the voracity of your beliefs.

          • First, there is proof of people receiving limbs, cancers disappearing, teeth being filled and all kinds of miracles. Second, even if you saw a miracle it won’t make you believe. I’ve seen people discount every miracle, justify it somehow…untill they put faith to what they see. Miracles alone will not “prove” anything to you. Which is the same with everything. we can give answers for everything you ask and you will still not believe….until you mix faith with what you hear. The bible says when you believe in your heart you are justified before God…and when you proclaim with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” you are saved. May I suggest that you believe in your heart….but your head is very messed up. You can overcome that by declaring with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God, that he died for your sins and he rose again giving you eternal life. Scripture says we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. In other words, it is the blood where the power is to accomplish everything we need…and it is our testimony, the words of our mouth mixed with that that overcomes all.

          • Jesus didn’t forbid praying in public….only portraying the self righteousness of praying in public. Paul said to pray unceasingly…how you going to do that without praying in public. we should look to God in all our ways, acknowleding Him in everything. If we pray, we are asking His blessing on whatever we’re doing. that would include public meetings, etc.

          • I am sorry Mitchell, but you are, like many who attempt to use scripture in arguments/debates, taking that verse out of context. Lcuvillier was simply praying for you. There is a difference in what Matthew 6:1-8 is talking about praying to be noticed, doing deeds to be noticed “look at me, look at me” and what lcuvillier did. If you are going to quote scripture in a debate, you might want to have some level of contextual understanding- especially if you are going to “congratulate” someone on “locking them self out of heaven.

          • If you’re going to lie to me about the Bible, then you should learn to lie better.

            Same goes to you as above: if there is any confirmed, demonstrable, logically sound evidence for your claims of a deity, provide it. Else, you might as well ask me to believe in unicorns or big foot or Allah or anything else that is accepted without reason.

          • Mr. Davis,
            Sorry to say but it’s clear to me that you have not opened the pages of the Bible. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are all the same. One entity. God is not evil, since He voluntarily “crucified/sacrificed” Himself on the cross. He gave us the cross, as a symbol of His unconditional love towards the ones who declare Him as their Savior. I agree with one of your statements, that men are evil ” there is none righteous,no, not one – Romans 4:10. However, with His love comes forgiveness for sins that we commit daily. Men like darkness more than light, because their deeds are evil. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God – John 3:21. Grace and peace be with you.

          • Do you really beileve all that?….. great stories, allegories, parables to guide the morality of collaborating within a society for the good of all. jesus had to have been a socialist.

          • So, you’ve never read the bible. God hardens hearts all the fucking time, according to it. What’s more, god intentionally slaughtered thousands of little boys in Egypt HIMSELF, according to the bible. There is no metaphorical interpretation of that.

            If that god exists, it’s evil. End of story.

          • I was replying to the comment where it said Jesus was a socialist. A socialist would take people’s money and redistribute it. Jesus never took money from anyone, he only asked people to help their neighbors. Also you introduce another logical fallacy known as a red herring into the discussion

          • Another claim about a fallacy where there is none. You really have no fucking idea what these are, do you? Point to the fallacy and explain why it’s a fallacy, if there is one.

          • The fallacy is “What’s more, god intentionally slaughtered thousands of little boys in Egypt HIMSELF, according to the bible. There is no metaphorical interpretation of that.” That statement has nothing to do with the comment from Nastasyana or my reply to her. The definition of a red herring fallacy is the informal fallacy of presenting an argument that may or may not be logically valid, but fails nonetheless to address the issue in question.

          • “but fails nonetheless to address the issue in question.” Only if the intent is to address that issue, and not another one. Good job, dullard.

          • The fallacy is still a fallacy whether you meant to commit it or not. I suspect you knew what you were doing but hoped I was too stupid to realize it

          • “The fallacy is still a fallacy whether you meant to commit it or not.” A fallacy is a fallacy irrespective of it’s intended use as a fallacy, but the criteria for a Red Herring demands that it be irrelevant to the issue under discussion- it wasn’t, because we are discussing more than one thing. If you’d like to ignore it out of convenience, fine, but logic does not bend to your convenience.

          • To ACTIONS in the OT? None. It doesn’t suddenly become moral because the deity murders his kid- that makes the deity worse, not better. If god was subjected to it’s own rules, it would go to hell.

          • “Look ma! I can spew lie and make unevidenced claims all day long with no mental effort!”

            You’re a dumbass.

          • So you are saying that God created the government and its system??? If I understand my history books correctly, it was man who created it….so doesn’t that make man evil and not God?

          • I’m not religious- how do people not get that? That I can accurately quote from the Bible (Christians cannot) is a good demonstration that I’m not religious. You should actually read what I’ve been saying instead of automatically assuming Biblical quotations = Bible Thumper.

          • Hmmm, sounds a lot like you are describing our liberal president and his liberal ways. You want a God that takes care of you and makes people do good and helps everyone who is in need (ACA/Welfare), even if they are the only ones that put themselves in that situation, or they could not afford education because of how the laws force universities to go up and up in price.

            God is great because he lets people live their lives and not control everything in this world. There is no one to blame for the pain and suffering of human kind, than human kind itself. And those that criticize others faith and beliefs are just as evil as how they see others faiths and beliefs. YOU are unkind, YOU are judgmental, YOU are what causes evil and corruption. MIND YOURSELF, and stop pointing fingers at the people who believe in a faith that is based on love and forgiveness.

            And don’t come back with some quotes from the bible. Anyone who takes the bible at face value is naive to think that it hasn’t been changed to reflect the beliefs of popes and priests thousands of years ago. The bible should be a guide, not a manual.

          • You’re telling me people made themselves be born to impoverished parents? Parents with genetically inherited disabilities? That is not love you are spouting, it is bigoted hatred for the poor to make yourself feel superior.

            ” Anyone who takes the bible at face value is naive to think that it hasn’t been changed to reflect the beliefs of popes and priests thousands of years ago.” I don’t take it at face value, I’m an atheist, DUH. You take parts of it at face value, and ignore other parts. If the Bible has been modified, then god must have changed his mind, no? If god changed his mind, it means he’s not omniscient.

            I am judgmental! If you think there’s something wrong with being judgmental, and not with certain judgments, then YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING- being judgmental simply means being quick to judge, and to judge is to make a decision about something. If you have no opinions, if you do not judge, you hold no beliefs or opinions at all. Is that true? No. Yet another demonstration of ignorance.

            “And those that criticize others faith and beliefs are just as evil as how they see others faiths and beliefs.” Really? You’re telling me it’s somehow bad to criticize evils? You think that it’s evil to criticize Hitler? Stalin? You think it’s evil to think about beliefs you don’t agree with? That would make everyone that thinks about something they don’t agree with, evil. That would prevent people form changing their minds. You’re saying this because you can’t handle a simple burden of proof. Logic goes like this: “I think X; look, here’s the proof.” What you’re doing is this: “I think X; if you disagree with me, you’re evil, and I don’t have to provide evidence for my beliefs- they get a special exemption from logic because… Just because.”

            What’s more, the comment is infinitely recursive: you are judging me and criticizing my beliefs and statements that were critical of your beliefs and statements. It is not logical. If you do not care to be logical, it means that you do not care to be accurate. If you don’t care to be accurate, then by definition, you are a person that does not care if their beliefs are true.

            ” faith that is based on love and forgiveness.” Christianity is based on the throffer of eternal torture or bliss, made by an mob boss that is responsible for all evil in the world (if he exists). If he does not have the power to do anything to change the world, then he is not responsible. If he has the power and does not act, the he is, be definition, the creator and perpetuator of evil.

            If this is the god you believe in, then you are indeed following a religion of love- a religion of love of all things evil.

            If your religion was true, then y’all wouldn’t have had the need to murder and rape and torture those that question it for thousands of years to avoid people questioning your beliefs: you would discard the practice of indoctrination and teach your children to constantly question everything, and how to operate logically, because that is how you find the facts. If your god was real, there would be some tangible evidence for it. To avoid forcing yourself to come to terms with the fact that there is no evidence for your god, you have decided to play this game instead of being the least bit intellectually honest.

          • You’re are taking what any of the Christian people are saying to you and spinning it to support your obvious obsession with evil. I’m not going to sit here and go back and forth with you on this, but again I will remind: MAN is the one responsible for evil/torture/rape… if man has done this in the name of any belief, it is because of his own ignorance and hostility, not because “God/God’s” told him to, or made him do it. God did not write the bible. MAN did. And so no, I am not going to obey to things that are clearly written by ancient priests. My context of Judgmental was mean to be as in Criticism. Don’t criticism others for have a faith. Judge all you want, but don’t criticize what you can’t/won’t understand. Man is ignorant and it yes, it is a shame and extremely unfortunate… But this is not the will of whatever God, anyone chooses to believe in.

          • “You figure with all the millions of Christians in the world, you’d have managed to get a modicum of evidence for your god” — Christianity is a way of life. If you’re looking for evidence, look at how these people live their lives and compare it to how the much, much lesser atheists in the world live theirs. Language is supposedly the BRIDGE between religion and science, if Language is your expertise, I wonder why you’re wasting time in that field seeing how poorly you’re applying its purpose. Christians are HAPPIER than atheists (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/28/christians-happier-than-atheists-at-least-on-twitter/) and happy individuals make happy societies. I honestly wouldn’t want to live in a society where more of you are in it.

          • Mitchell,

            We are all evil… you too… God murdered His sinless and pure Son so that we could have redemption through Him. He provided a way for everyone that chooses Him to come to Him. God originally created a perfect world. It was through sin that it became corrupt. It was mankind that destroyed it. Besides God is smarter than you think… He gave you a free will to not choose Him, otherwise if He did make mankind to choose Him, he would be a cosmic rapist and be forcing His will on all of mankind. He’s given you the option to deny Him and His existence if you so choose. And when your life ends, you will not have the option to change your mind. He’s calling all of us to trust Him. I wouldn’t want to live in a world that didn’t have a creator… I’m glad to know I did not come from some primordial soup. He even knows the number of the hairs on our heads… he gathers our tears when we weep. He is near us when we are brokenhearted. He is a rescuer, a strong tower, a very present help in the time of trouble. He lifts our heads when we cannot. He give hope to the hopeless and he will judge the unrighteous. He loves you Mitchell and He would love it if you sought out the truth.

            May God reveal Himself to you in a real way,
            Blessings.

          • “God murdered his sinless and pure son so that we could have redemption” – So god sinned, something he can’t do, to save you from your sin. It all makes sense now.

          • Your answers are very finite. Do you know what hell is? Do Christians? It doesn’t seem to be a very nice place either way.

            Mitchell Davis, God murdered his own son? Or did Jesus choose to make a sacrifice for the love of all. You can choose your answer as you wish but you cannot use the Bible to support that.

            What is God’s moral system that you talk of? You do not seem to be presenting a Christian perspective.

            Question for you to think on, would a perfect system require freewill and if so what are the consequences of that?

          • One day, you will know the truth, and I pray that you see it before you take your last breath. I don’t believe these lies that you posted, I believe the Word of God. My trust is in Him who died for me. Both of us cannot be right. If you are right and we die and go into the ground, then neither one of us will care. If I’m right, you have a whole lot more to be concerned about. I will choose to believe in Jesus Christ, not out of fear, but out of love, because He first loved us to die for us…

          • Please, knock it off. We are talking about the U.S. not religion. Do not bring your christian sharia into this discussion. That has been an excuse to allow the wealthy to take over this country and contradict all the so called “christian values” that they propose to support. it is the religious nuts who are manipulating people into believing that there is a division based on values and not a division based on class, race and wealth.

          • He has used His power….He created you and me. What are you doing to stop the pain and suffering. It sounds like you are blaming a God for your lack of action. God is not responsible for your actions. The God I serve is love, wrath, and just in His judgement of both. Learn about Him.

          • If he is wrath, then god is a sinner. If he is love, then why does he allow murder? If he created everythingknowing what would happen, he is responsible for the consequences.

            Attacking my character only goes to show how completely uncertain you are that your god exists. Anyone that ACTUALLY knows something, is not only able to demonstrate that thing, but also willing. If you are unwilling to demonstrate that your god exists, there is no reason to think it does. If you are unable, then you don’t know if it does.

          • His wrath is just. I understand if you find that hard to believe or accept. And in no way am I attacking your character, I don’t know you.

          • Mr. Davis; I have observed this thread as an outsider, and noticed that you seek evidence for a Creator. I am not trying to butt in, but thought I’d take a few swings from ya… el oh el.
            What sort of evidence are you demanding?
            You appeal to Universal abstracts, such as logic, justice, morality, evil, etc…. yet, how in your view as an atheist – and by extension, a Materialist, or Evolutionary Naturalist, would you agree? – is the existence of such Universals coherent with…matter? I would posit their existence, and alas, your awareness of them!, as quite consistent with the paradigm of a Created Order, where Man is made in the Imago Dei.
            Besides, the evidence for the Crucifixion, and subsequent empty tomb, are among the most supported historical events known of ancient man. That you refuse this doesn’t change the history…

          • Just because a thing is consistent with your idea does not mean it is evidence of it. Universal constants are demonstrations of the universe making sense, and not else unless otherwise demonstrated.

            “Besides, the evidence for the Crucifixion, and subsequent empty tomb, are among the most supported historical events known of ancient man.”

            That statement is how I know you aren’t a historian, and the post is how I can tell you don’t care about logic. The gospels are four CONFLICTING accounts of Jesus’ life that are mutually exclusive. They are posthumously named, and are at BEST written seventy years after his death.

            You have the CLAIM of the Crucifixion and the empty tomb- four conflicting claims that were at best fourth-hand accounts.

            Historians, including many biblical scholars that are also historians, tend not to accept the biblical evidence as historical evidence- except for Christians. Telling, isn’t it, that the only people in remotely scientific fields to vouch for religions are the religious?

            I am demanding the basic evidence that would be used for any other claim of any other thing that exists [not that it COULD exist (which is what you were arguing above) but that it DOES exist].

            The conversational divergences are sufficiently summarized below:

            Claimant: “Thing X exists, and has properties/characteristics A, B, C.”
            Logical person: “What proof have you?”
            >Illogical claimant: *utilizes logical fallacy, subversion of burden of proof, etc* ( = *fails to provide evidence*)
            >>Logical person: “Points Q, E are fallacious; I have no reason to believe thing X exists.”
            >Logical Claimant: *provides confirmed evidence*
            >>Logical person: “Okay, thing X exists.”
            >Logical Claimant: *accidentally provides faulty evidence*
            >>Logical person: “Points U, D are fallacious; I have no reason to believe thing X exists.”
            >>>Logical Claimant: “Oops. You are correct.”

            This is essentially a purely logical argument, utilized as a component of the scientific method.

          • I don’t accept it because you want me to believe it without giving a reason: do you think I’ll mindlessly repeat whatever you say, just because you’re saying it? Is it just because god defines justice, or is god simply an advocate for justice?

            If God simply relays what is good to us, he is absolutely irrelevant. If good is good simply because he says so, then morality is not constant. That, and you’re doing the Nazi>Hitler thing: following a murderous zealot and believing everything he says and that is positively said about him for absolutely no reason.

            Also, you said, “And in no way am I attacking your character, I don’t know you.” only, you’re lying because you’re following a book that says that I am evil, and that you should kill me because I deserve it, and then I’ll spend the rest of eternity being tortured. Infinite punishment for finite crimes is by definition infinitely immoral, and therefore anyone that institutes that system or advocates for it is also infinitely immoral.

            You’d rather sycophantically regurgitate the hate-mongering of a thing that you can’t demonstrate exists, than actually give a shit about the human race- how evil is that?

          • Let me first say this; there is probable nothing I’m going to say that you haven’t heard before, and in no way can I or will I say you NEED to believe what I’m telling you. You are free to make that choice. Just consider what I’m telling you and think about it.
            You don’t accept for the same reasons everyone else doesn’t accept, including myself many years ago. But what REASON do you want? what kind of PROOF are you looking for? I’m not gonna give you proof, I don’t have to, it’s all around you.
            God does not define justice, God IS justice. Good is good because it is, just like 2+2=4 because it does.
            You are not evil. You (and I) are capable of doing evil things, and we do them every day. You don’t deserve death, you (like everyone else) deserve separation from the Creator. Yet He made is possible to be with Him…you know the story.
            It just seems that you don’t understand that your crimes (and mine as well) are not finite. They are in opposition to the purity that is God.
            The human mind can’t wrap their minds around the idea of God (the ones who seek proof). Draw a circle, and continuously cut it in half. How many times can you do that? Infinite, yet we can see the finite space in which it is contained. There are things in known existence we can’t understand, what makes you think that the human brain can understand everything?

          • Well, there you go. If you cannot define god, then you cannot prove god logically, which means you’re just making stuff up, or copying someone that’s made stuff up.

            If you don’t understand what ‘type’ of evidence I need, then you don’t understand how a logical demonstration of existence works.

            “Good is good because it is, just like 2+2=4 because it does.” Digging yourself deeper and deeper into the whole of the label ‘I do not understand kindergarten logic’. 2+2=4 for a reason. 2 is the quantity two because we labeled the concept with the symbol, the same goes for four. Four is by definition the double of two. You’ve yet to define god, save ‘god is good’. You have failed to give evidence for god being good. Woo. This really isn’t hard: define your god, then demonstrate how the characteristics you’ve outlined not only can but MUST be true.

          • The logic you are looking for is right in front of you. You want God defined? Something tells me you’ve heard it all before and I real feel like it’d be wasting your time and mine.
            And by your “lack of evidence” for God I would assume that you also don’t believe in Julius Caesar, or Aristotle…due to the same lack of proof.
            Learn about Jesus and you’ll know how to define God. I can’t tell you what it is, it’s an experience. It’s faith, something we all have…just not the same kind or in the same things.
            Good luck to you.

          • Lol. There is actual evidence for Caesar and Aristotle. There are numerous, both first and secondhand contemporary accounts of Caesar and Aristotle.

            Since you’ve yet to provide and evidence for your god, I’ll assume none exists. If you have evidence, provide it. If you wanted people to believe in god, if you didn’t want them to go to hell, then you would care about the truth, and proving it to people.

            ‘Thing X exists. The evidence is that I said so.’- that’s what you’re doing. That’s illogical. It’s worse than childish, because it’s a blatant attempt at cheating logic.

            If you do or have ever cared about what is accurate, or if you’ve ever cared about people, then prove this thing instead of just making claims about it.

          • Then you’re saying that your god does not acct upon the real world, or, that he only did in ancient history. We can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Caeser did exist- if you want to prove that Jesus or god existed, provide multiple, non-conflicting, then-contemporary first-hand accounts of Jesus activities, and then demonstrate that his violations of physics are possible. If your god exists and does things (answers prayers, works miracles, has children, etc) than the affects of such actions can be measured.

          • Then you’re saying that your god does not acct upon the real world, or, that he only did in ancient history. We can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Caesar did exist- if you want to prove that Jesus or god existed, provide multiple, non-conflicting, then-contemporary first-hand accounts of Jesus activities, and then demonstrate that his violations of physics are possible. If your god exists and does things (answers prayers, works miracles, has children, etc) than the affects of such actions can be measured.

            If you can’t provide evidence for god, you’re admitting that there is no reason to believe it exists. You are admitting this is a farcical thing you believe in.

          • Just as there is actual evidence of Ceasar and Aristotle, there is evidence of Jesus. Thousand upon thousands of people saw Him live, die, and resurrect.

          • please demonstrate the theory of the Big Bang and how life began. If you are so knowing and smarter than people of faith. Thanks.

          • Yay! You’ve created a dichotomy(if you’re wrong we’re right)! That simply isn’t the case. You’ve now seen this without giving your reason for believing in god, which means you’re in violation of 1 Peter 3:15. But, you’re also talking about your religion publicly, which means you’re ignoring Jesus’ statements in multiple gospels, which means you’re a heretic, which means you’re going to your own hell.

            You know the best reason for knowing more about the religions of murderous sycophants than they themselves do? You understand that they are full of shit, and boy do I love being accurate. Not thought to be accurate, actually accurate.

          • Thank you for cutting down how I choose to live my life and how I choose to celebrate my faith! Again, I don’t obey the bible like it’s some kind of cult guide. All I know is my God, is a God of love and forgiveness and I live my life by spreading love and doing my best to be a good person. Any non over the top, religious nut job would agree with me that Humans will NEVER be perfect, but to at least have faith and love in your life is the best we can do.

            Whether I go to heaven or hell, is not my concern. My concern is how I spend my days on this earth. Stop using the bible, which you don’t believe in to cut down others for having a faith that you can’t accept.

            Peace and love be with you.

          • “All I know is my God, is a God of love and forgiveness and I live my life by spreading love and doing my best to be a good person.” No you don’t. If you know that your god existed, you would care to prove it. If you can’t, then you don’t.

            “Whether I go to heaven or hell, is not my concern.” Okay, then you don’t care if your god is good, either. Again, you’re just making shit up.

            And no shit I can’t accept faith: faith is by definition belief without or in spite of evidence, which means that you are believing in something whether or not it is true or real. You can’t say you know, and then use faith as your only evidence in the same paragraph if you want to be taken seriously. Tip: never admit you’re lying if you want to convince someone of the lie, especially not to their face.

          • I am not God’s God.

            I question on reflection for you Mitchell is why do you do you ask these questions?

          • Mitchell, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but its true. You spin everything you can, thats a sign of something you are hiding, are not wanting to face. You state that if anyone knows something, they are able to show proof! Thats not true in so many ways Mitchell. If I see a tree fall in the woods, I know its real! But if I am only one there how can i prove to you I saw the tree fall? What you are disagreeing with and getting so wound up about is basically the same way you are acting. Evil is Evil! Plain and simple! God is an evil person, I see people die that has no reason to be taken off this earth, but it happens. God doesnt control every aspect of what happens here. God set it up for us to learn and grown on.

            That being said, I have my doubts on a lot of the religious / Bible stuff as well. But I do know I read the Bible daily and every day I learn something knew. You stated you could beat anyone here on Bible trivia, yet turned around when you became offended and said you never said you were perfect, well, no one else did either.. Correct? isnt that a contradiction? A lie? See, I dont think it was a lie, it was a slight mistake, which we all make daily.. It doesnt mean everyone is evil and lying at all times.

            You are a very well spoken person, and I know how you operate. You feed, you thrive, you live off debate, and turning what people say around on them. Thats a lie as well, thats a conradiction to the person you try so hard to make people believe you are. When in reality you are a scared individual, staring at the screen right now waiting for someone to post something you can disect and quote with your spin-filled quotes you have had saved and ready for use for no telling how long.

            Debate is something thats needed, without it we have nothing. But for you to keep slamming religious people and calling them liars is much worse than what these people choose to believe to be happy in life. Move on with your life, be happy.

            Have a good day

          • I’m not unhappy with my life. Lying about me doesn’t help your case (nice try with the lack of specificity- anyone that’s the least bit a critical thinker understands that vagueness is one of the best signs of a charlatan), pretending you know something about me doesn’t help your case either, especially when you’re lying to my face. (Seriously, how do you expect to convince someone of what you’re saying if the person you’re lying about is the person you’re lying to?)

            If you give a shit about whether or not your beliefs are true, PROVIDE SOME EVIDENCE FOR THEM. It’s the only thing I’ve asked for for years on end from you lunatics and never once have any of you provided any sound evidence for your deity. Why is that? Why can’t you just be a little intellectually honest? Why must you attempt to cheat every conversation? Why are you so illogical? Why do you resort to logical fallacies in every statement? Why are you so stupid as to be convinced by arguments from experience? Why are you incapable of providing evidence? Why are you a sycophant to a doctrine of morality-by fiat? Why are you incapable of understanding basic standards of evidence? Why are you unable to understand history? Why don’t you care about being accurate? Why don’t you care bout telling the truth? Why?

          • @disqus_aZCxFL76GE:disqus You are proof that God is real. 🙂 this world is proof that God is real. if you want written proof, then the Bible gives that to you. Thousands of people saw Christ do miracles and resurrect from the dead and then ascend into heaven. What more proof do you want? Ask and I will try my best to show it to you.

          • No, it is claimed that hundreds of people saw Christs miracles. It is also claimed in the Koran that thousands saw Mohammed’s miracles. Both books contain claims, not proof. Each of the gospels contradicts with the other three. All of the gospels were written at least seventy years after Jesus’ supposed death and were at best 3rd-hand accounts.

            This demonstrates that you either have a level of understanding of logic below a kindergartener’s capacity, or that you’re a troll. Either way, I cannot help you- no one can (at least, not with logic. Once you’ve forsaken logic, it is impossible for another to use logic to to make you understand you are wrong because you don’t care about it.). If you ever decide to care about having a moral compass, or to care about your beliefs being accurate, let me know.

          • I would appreciate if you wouldn’t be so rude, I am not trying to be rude to you. What kind of proof are you talking about then? If thousands of people all complying they witnessed something isn’t proof, then what is? honest question.

          • You don’t have thousands of people saying they witnessed the same thing, you have four anonymous people saying that OTHER people witnessed something before the writers were born. If you take this standard as acceptable, you must convert to Islam and still remain Christian. You’re arbitrarily picking Christianity over all other religions with the same level of proof.

            What’s more, if god ever actually did anything to anything in the real world, the effects would be quantifiable and demonstrable. Can you point to a peer-reviewed research document that demonstrates such an occurrence?

          • Neither of these articles are evidence. Evidently you have no fucking idea what the peer-review system is or how it operates. What’s more, if you reference the source to prove itself you are employing a >logical fallacycircular reasoning<. You're doing the same thing all the major religions do: my religion is true because my religious text says that the claims in the same text are accurate. By definition, the claims of proof of claims are CLAIMS, and not evidence for the claims.

          • I sorry, i honestly don’t really know how to find a peer reviewed article on the internet :O and I completely agree with the circular reasoning, it is logical fallacy. I just thought the article on the other documents was what you meant by demonstable. my bad. Just food for thought though, since the Bible is made up of many authors, since each authors story validates the other ones, wouldn’t that count as it is more likely to be true? I would like to give you evidence, but I don’t know how to get the evidence you want? Do you want a book that says the Bible is true? or what kind of evidence. So far I just have found a whole lot of people who say that the Bible is most likely true because of all the other artifacts they have found that validates it…… sorry i cant be more of help :/

          • God did not create evil nor is He evil… He is incapable of being evil. Because of one’s man’s sin entered the world, and death is the result of sin, all have sinned and come short of the the magnificent glory of the only one true God. He did, however create the potential for evil by giving man the free will to not choose Him therefore, when man does sin, it is a denial of trust in God and an attempt to become his own god. When that takes place, mankind distorts what is holy and right, therefore those who don’t understand God or His principles are easy to point the finger at a God they don’t understand.. Your statement very clearly exudes the lack of knowledge concerning God’s character and holiness. So in conclusion, if you want to be angry at someone, be angry at your own human nature… not you, nor I am good nor will we ever be outside of the redemption given through Christ. It sounds to me that you are perhaps angry at God because you have no other answer for the evil in the world. Perhaps you have suffered injustice or tragedy and therefore the only reasonable answer is to blame the Almighty, because after all, He created this world and is ultimately responsible for it… which too is a misconception about the nature of God. Read the bible if you truly want answers about the evil in the world… be sure to interpret it with other passages in the bible. There’s no harm in educating yourself about God and how he truly responds to mankind.

            Blaming God for pain and suffering is a lazy way out and allows you to the liberty to be justified in your own mind. Knowledge is power and when truth is revealed, life gets easier with which to deal.

          • ” Your statement very clearly exudes the lack of knowledge concerning God’s character and holiness.” No, I understand you fictitious deity’s nature. You label god as holy, even though you believe he endorses slavery, (Eph, Deut, etc) torture (Hell), rape (entire OT) he is a murderer (Passover, the Flood, and ultimately responsible for all other death)- but you love the evil that is your god anyway.

            ” He created this world and is ultimately responsible for it…” That is you, admitting that god not just allows, but created evil. If god created everything and knows everything, he knows how not to create evil. So, either he does not exist, or he deliberately created evil, and therefore is evil (and he did create evil; you’ve evidently never read Isaiah).

            Take note: saying to read the bible to learn about god is like telling someone to read Spider Man comics to learn about Spider Man. Spider Man comics claim Spider Man exists; the bible claims god exists. You have offered no proof that your god exists, ONLY claims. Anyone that cannot offer proof, doesn’t actually know what they’re talking about; either offer proof, or there is no reason to believe anything you say.

          • So Mitchell Davis, If God doesn’t stop all the pain and suffering, give EVERYBODY all the “happy pills” they want and basically help everyone be lazy screw-ups: then he is a fake? Your brain is clearly a fake.

          • “Your brain is clearly a fake.” You’re an idiot. If I’m a human with a working brain, it is not fake. That you’re this stupid ties in quite well with your inability to understand clear logical fallacies.

            If god doesn’t stop all evil occurrences, and he has the power to do so effortlessly, then he is evil by definition.

            I’m curios as to how you think god isn’t a lazy screw-up, but you think people born into poverty, or those with serious medical disorders, or victims of crimes or assaults, are lazy screw-ups.

          • Mr. Davis, I apologize on behalf of any of my fellow Christians here who have resorted to ad hominem attacks against you. You say you don’t believe in God because you haven’t seen any empirical proof of His existence, which you have every right to say and think, just as I have a right to believe in Him. If you feel that makes me a bad person, so be it. I just wish I could tell everyone to leave you alone and let you think and believe as you will. If you want to know more about why I believe in God, I could try to explain it to you. Otherwise, you have a nice night, and best of luck to you.

          • God choose to give us freewill. A consequence of this is that we have the ability to choose to do right or wrong. A question here for me is to create or not create.

            Also, one of the purposes of life is to learn to love the unlovely. Not because it makes us feel good, but because we appreciate their beauty irrespective of their utility value. It is our character that is refined through this.

          • More claims without any evidence.

            I’m really getting tired of this childish horse shit. If anyone has ANY evidence for their deity, present it. Without evidence, you may as well be believing in the tooth fairy or santa.

          • Your evidence on the subject is what? Please remember the original conversation. But I shall paste here for focus.

            God choose to give us freewill. A consequence of this is that we have the ability to choose to do right or wrong. A question here for me is to create or not create.

            Also, one of the purposes of life is to learn to love the unlovely. Not because it makes us feel good, but because we appreciate their beauty irrespective of their utility value. It is our character that is refined through this.

          • I understand what you said, did you understand what I said? If you choose to respond to the meaning intended originally, please refrain from using qualitative language in future.

            Dolt = why the ad hom? Can you not be respectful or civil or are you attempting to demonstrating your vision of how you think the world could and should be?

            Oh please provide evidence for your basic assumptions.

          • Evil is responsible for the pain and suffering. Jesus came to save the world,, not condemn it. God protects anyone that trusts in Him. Man is his own worst enemy because we agree embrace evil instead of God.

          • Oh yeah, belief in bullsh*t is real useful to get us out of man-made problems. Where’s your christ during tsunamis, earthquakes, kids dying of cancer? Oh right, he works in mysterious ways! Always The Big Excuse. Where was god on 9.11? On his coffee break? On holiday in the Bahamas? Or maybe he was on the side of the perpetrators since they said they were acting in his name – and THEY succeeded. meanwhile, I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for your supernatural savior.

          • Amazing how a video that allows for conversation on how to change the political situation has disintegrated into a comedy hour about religion! What ever happened to the original subject of the comedy of errors between the two most powerful political powers and the money backing them that have gotten our country into this disgraceful situation? This is just an indication of what else is wrong with our country. If it can’t be resolved by grown ups without blame, shame and name calling, it must be solved by God. Ridiculous!

          • absolutely true, and while i’ve thoroughly enjoyed the trouncing that the religious have been suffering in this debate… i would have preferred a more on topic discussion as well.

          • God didn’t fly a plane into the two towers. People did. Stop blaming it on God. Man is responsible for his own actions.

          • People need to learn the hard way. God can’t save us from every sin man makes because then no one would care to have morals. God will fix all our mistakes!

            Sound familiar?

            I can’t believe that no one understands this concept -_-

          • That is the most dangerous thinking of all, the idea that we can’t do anything about anything but somehow everything will be OK. It’s dangerous to think that we have no control over war, that we have no control over climate change, that we have no control over our nation’s finances., that one day Jesus will come and all will be OK. What if you have it wrong? What if Jesus’ resurrection was a figurative one – and not a literal one – like many Biblical scholars believe? What if we are on our own? We better start caring and taking care of business soon.

          • Yeah im sure Jesus will set the financial markets straight…he has a PhD. in economics from Cambridge you didn’t know that did you?

          • An imaginary Hero will not come rescue you from corruption. Politics is a lame excuse to feed money into 5 families and religion is a sad excuse to form bi-est opinions on people or groups of people and in barbaric situations even kill people. politics and religion… The downfall of humanity.

          • The point of the video is there is plenty of blame on both sides to go around. The point of my post is it seems to be Ok if your a Democrat, but bad if your Republican proving again you are either part of the solution or the problem. And yes, George Soros is one of the richest men in the world, far richer than the Koch brothers!

          • Thanks – it’s about division for these people. It’s not about the country, it’s about spoiled children calling names, insulting and mouthing crap they hear from the biased media.

            The rant of this reporter was correct – totally correct and yet people sit here and try and place blame so their views won’t have to be turned upside down.

          • its hilarious to watch at times isnt it? me… i just sit on my rooftop and fiddle while the whole world burns.

          • George Soros having 10 times the Koch brothers’ money? Are you serious?
            Soros: 23 billion dollars. Charles & David Koch: 45.6 billion dollars.

          • Trillions? I’d love to see where you’re getting your numbers from.

            Also, what is your argument regarding politicians’ net worth? If anything, one would suspect that a poorer legislator would be more incentivized to accept bribes or donations from sketchy sources.

          • Really, we’re going to agrue over which side is bought more? All Americans regarless of party should be outraged. Doesn’t it anger you that our government has been bought? We are just pawns.

          • The Democrats dont want to hear about Soros. Since his Spanish-owned company that now controls our electoral vote computing systems, they are happy.

          • Your line of reasoning is part of the problem he’s railing against. You, like every other simple minded american, always go back to the us versus them. Stop. Just stop. It’s both. It’s both, get that into your thick skull. Both parties want to steal from you, both are bought and paid for, so stop trying to ride that train that one isn’t so bad while the other is vile.

          • George Soros never ever went to the extreme lingths of the Koch Brothers and their five faux conservative groups.

          • First George Soros is worth 22B the Koch Brothers are worth 68B, so your first statement is a blantant lie. Now you talk about the money given to the democrats is even close to the 200M just since the election that Koch has funneled into its SuperPacs, so again you lie. Now about the trillions sent to democrats on green energy, when did this happen, I will tell you never.

            Now lets see, the democrats want to help the common man, can you tell me since the time of Nixon, one bill that a GOP congress has passed to help the average middle class citizen. Again none, nada zip, zilch.

            You are the typical Sarah Palin Tea party liar, no facts just absolute rhetoric. Go back in your single wide and be quist

          • I don’t care if there is a D or R in front of their name….WAKE UP!!! They act a certain way in front of people…but are all in bed together behind closed doors….When will people quit fighting each other, and go after the ones who ARE responsible???? geeze……smh

          • um he has 20 billion… Charles Koch has around 35 billion and his brother david has the same so 70 billion is more than 20 billion even if you use GOP math.

          • WRONG. The Koch brothers each have an estimated 34 billion dollar net worth. George Soros has less than 20 billion. 68 million buys a helluva lot of politicians, which is what Charles and David have done.

          • The Koch brother inherited their money from their father. Their father made his money from Josef Stalin. Look it up. Republicans are doomed, so are Democrats.

        • Aren’t you leaving out another party? Or do you only see a certain party getting in the other’s way? Look in the mirror and you will see the real problem. The truth can set you free,,,,,, if you let it.

        • The Koch brother inherited their money from their father. Their father made his money from Josef Stalin. Look it up. Republicans are doomed.

        • What’s with Koch Brothers? Isn’t George Soros the one that spent the most getting Obama elected? I would much rather have the Koch brothers around, who run the largest privately held corporation in the US and provide jobs for millions, than have Soros even be in this country. Soros is the person that tried to bring England down via currency manipulation and almost bankrupted the Bank of England causing millions of retirees and savers to loose their life savings.

          Stop believing crap and do some research. The John Birch Society has been around for years and years. They are conservative and for small FEDERAL government, less spending and getting corrupt out of government. So how come that is wrong?

        • He can’t make congress do anything- it’s impossible. He has neither the authority nor the ability. If he did, do you think they’d be draining $10billion out of the economy every week over an upgrade to the health care system- which wasn’t even prevented by the shutdown, due to how it was funded.

      • The President has nothing to do with any of this? Other than the fact that he fights vehimately to keep spending and raising our debt limits, advances military actions overseas, strong arms all opposition with every power accessible, and divides wherever possible.

        He has more power and is more corrupt than you will ever know….

      • Sure..that’s why he is giving weapons to the terrorist organization that his brother who is a full blown jihad runs right? Who is also high up in the Sudan gov….He is somewhat of a puppet…but it’s his own personal choice to HATE all of US, THE USA, and ALL WE STAND FOR….

      • He’s a Puppet of International Socialist business. Get it. Anti Capitalist, Anti American big businesses. Feeling the need to defend Obama as an innocent puppet, who hasn’t misled, used, and abused you is pathetic.

      • WRONG! President Obama is our .Commander in Chief. He is our leader that does not lead because he has no respect from his peers. If he takes what is going on with banking, foreign trade, our debt without any ideas and actions to help. He just sits back and rejects everyone’s ideas without suggesting compromise. What a joke!

      • Is that not the point he just made?? The President should cut the puppet strings, assume his responsibility, and tell the puppeteers to stick it in their bank accounts.

      • And this is why we never should have done the bail outs. Further, until the lobbyists are taken out of the equation nothing will change.

      • he could abolish the fed by executive order… but look what happened to the last two presidents that attempted to do so.

      • Your right! This whole thing has been planed for quite some time! But Obama is a tool. You got to start some where. Conduct trials, tribunals,. Investigations. Take our country back! Or Freedom will die forever! We have to act now. That’s why we had Malitias. But the powers of be made them weak. Perhaps Obama is coop and our Government is under siege. And main stream Media has not been telling us the truth!.

    • I hope Dylan felt a bit better after getting that weight off his chest. Sadly, what he speaks of is not happening to citizens of the the USA only. It is a global blight. It cannot be fixed by any one President alone.
      That said, banking and finance laws that protect the multitude of individual’s assets (the citizens’) result in more stable economies than those that allow profiteering, high debt ratios, and investment principle and other assets seizable by banks.
      Greed is the proverbial spanner in the works. Market forces cannot correct for greed, they are manipulated by it. Human beings invented money to make it easier to trade goods with each other, then commerce, financial institutions and the stock market. Money does not move around according to any Natural Law or Scientific principle; it moves according to where people put it, according to the laws we make as a society and the spending decisions we make as individuals.
      The laws we make are shaped by people we elect to represent us, too often we choose people who represent the needs of the captains of industry.

      “…And the men who hold high places, must be the ones to start; to mould a new reality, closer to the heart.” – Rush

    • So his entire point was that we need to trust Obama (the President) with cleaning up the corruption? The very President that recieved MILLIONS in overseas contributions each election, the same President that modified law to grant waivers to corporations and donors from a tax he shoves down everyone elses’ throats?

      LMFAO! Hey while we are at it, lets hand our nuclear arsenal to Iran and Russia! How about we let the bloods and Crypts run our prisons? Cartels run the ATF?

      This guy started to make sense, then remembered who bought HIM and then went right into rhetoric mode!

  • I’d elect and join him in marching on this puppets in DC and send them back to their corporate masters. Let the Koch Brothers sell them food and water. The rest of us should tell every congressman, senator, lobbyist, and political hack that they aren’t welcome in our communities. Take over the drones from the Pentagon, and tell the pukes that they can leave in peace or leave in pieces ( hopefully, the former ), but leave they must. It’s time everybody gets angry and says no more of this nonsense. If the Supreme Court wants money in politics, then tell them to go form a country somewhere else. They aren’t welcome here. Money out of politics or politicians out of our country!

  • To all Self Loathing Whites…..= Liberals…

    I’m Sorry your dad didn’t love you….I’m sorry Liberal politics used this disappointment as an excuse for you NOT to RESPECT your PARENTS, your COMMUNITY, Law Enforcement…..the Constitution…and all else that is good…

    I’m sorry for your self loathing Azzz…

    http://youtu.be/KUwjNBjqR-c

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/tony-venuti/baby-boomers-unintended-consequences-squared-take-a-bow/10152303134831808

    http://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261.full?sid=825d1e82-c5a4-4018-85d4-9a3a0016fc6f

    Please check above link….wonderful synopsis on the POST BIRTH LIBERAL ABORTION….(my take) not the article…..SELF LOATHING…academically understood….via this article…
    from the link….
    Nonetheless, to bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care. On these grounds, the fact that a fetus has the potential to become a person who will have an (at least) acceptable life is no reason for prohibiting abortion. Therefore, we argue that, when circumstances occur after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible.

  • How naive to think that Obama isn’t bought and a puppet, too. Congress needs term limits. Americans have no say so except at the ballot box and even that is corrupt. The whole of Washington, D.C. needs to be shoved into the Atlantic and started over.

      • There is a problem Mitchell, many people vote because they see a D or an R, not because of what the person stands for. It is like a Spongebob episode where the Krusty Crabs is taken over by a Mega Corporation. The people are literally eating grey slime formed to look like patties, but do not realize it because they are caught up in the environment of the restaurant. Many people do not see the crap they are being fed, only the symbol they trust.

        • There is the problem right there! It’s not the R or the D screwing us right now, it is US! WE have spent the last 20+ years not bothering to do any research on a single politician WE vote for and just check the R or D. Every thing that is wrong with America is OUR fault! If WE spent as much time researching politicians as we do American Idol contestants, things might not be so bad! WE have become complacent, look at the new democracies emerging in the Middle East. These people are being told if they go vote they will be killed and so will their family, AND THEY STILL GO VOTE!!! WE won’t go vote if it is too hot or cold out, or if the line is too long, or any one of a million reasons we just don’t care about our political system. WE need to wake up, accept the blame, stop trying to pawn it off on the people WE don’t know a thing about, and vote out EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN OFFICE RIGHT NOW. Stop trying to fit in by calling yourself a Republican or Democrat (leave the labels to the politicians, not one of us agrees with a single party on every topic) and be an informed, individual thinker who researches who they are voting for and knows what they stand for.

          • As I said above: Which is why ballots shouldn’t have any indication of party affiliation with a candidate on them and most certainly not an option to, with one check, vote a party line ticket.

        • That is why I am a big R with a little L. Some Democrats are more libertarian than Republicans so I vote for them. Sadly for the most voting for the Libertarian Party candidate is a wasted vote.

          • it’s only a wasted vote if you vote the lesser of two evils. i vote for whoever i feel best represents how i feel things should be run. if your libretarian let your voice be heard. if your liberal or conservative then vote that way. i hate obama but mcain didn’t seem any better. i voted bob barr and stand behind my vote.

        • Which is why ballots shouldn’t have any indication of party affiliation with a candidate on them and most certainly not an option to, with one check, vote a party line ticket.

        • Elections have money involved in them, but that doesn’t mean they’re bought.

          We have some major flaws in our electoral system: there are two dominant parties, we don’t use instant-runoff voting, money is a necessary component due to the structure of the system, gerrymandering potential has yet to be replaced by the shortest split-line method, and so on. This doesn’t mean they’re fraudulent, it means the game is rigged towards those that already possess power and wealth- which is part of the reason the two-party system still exists. It’s a cyclical stupidity, and it is perpetuated by both those that have sold their integrity and those that care not for it.

          Make a note: large-scale Presidential Election tampering has never taken place in the United States. That’s just you, either being racist or folding to Yellow Journalism and conspiracies, or both. By diverting attention from actual problems on to imaginary ones, you are “playing the part of the wool stocking,” as it were.

          • How would you know if tampering has taken place? I can assure you that voter fraud takes place. It may be as small as someone submitting an absentee ballot for their state of residence while also voting in person in the state they live in during the winter. But fraud is fraud, right? You can’t be “kinda pregnant”, you either are or you aren’t.

        • You know, voting down my comment, and NOT making a cogent rebuttal could hardly be a better indicator that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

          You will always remain ignorant if you do not care to be correct, or if you care more about exalting the speakers than the voracity of their statements.

      • Not exactly. Where the House has gerrymandered their districts, they are pretty much guaranteed their jobs for as long as they want them.

  • Too had his proposed solution is to steal more money to create a bank that gives out even more unsustainably cheap credit, because up until that part this guy seemed like he had something there.

  • Sayin obammy is powerful is just a *tad* of an oxymoron…

    At this point were being raped by a system put in place, bankers, politicians, and even obamster are all part of the problem.

    My suggestion is to start a massive defunding immediately, with a full defunding by April 15th. Forceful removal of everyone in office, cancelation of all debts just like that foreign country recently did… let the bankers choke on their failed greed.

    This guy may be the only person ive ever seen on msnbc that i agree with. Of course getting the communist in chief to play that tune hes calling for is a PIPE DREAM.

  • Amazing guy….or at least daring enough to not give a crap that he could be assassinated now pretty easily. He is right. The president of the United States is the antichrist.

  • The only flaw in his plan is he wants the president who has an administration full of lobbyists, after promising he’d have no lobbyists, make a speech about too much money in politics. Huh!

  • You do realize that he is telling you that a Chicago politician is your go to guy to get politicians out of the money problem. Obama is a Chicago politician and, therefore, a giant part of the problem this guy says we have.

    • WHAT… ??? you mean vote in a politician based on his performance and not his ability to debate or make a great speech!!! OMG what a concept. Many American Voters let the media tell them which politician to vote for… and the one with the most money and backing wins — not the one with the most success in keeping their state in the black. This guy knows BO is a joke… and that’s why he is challenging him to do it. He never said BO would, just that he should!.

  • God, Ratigan, you don’t know how often I have felt like this, said all the same things. That I started years ago is the only difference. What will make you all wake up and learn some damned mathematics? Hunger, for one.

  • I just wrote this to Obama.. via http://www.whitehouse.gov/engage
    Please share.

    Hello,

    My name is Ross and I am a 26 year old fiddle player from Austin TX.

    I just can’t take it anymore, how can we properly govern over this entire United States, and Millions of people, by letting every elected official get bribed by lobbyists and big business.

    The large corporations already brainwash the American public with advertising to buy useless things that no one needs, and food that literally kills them. All this does is inflate a wasteful economy that is definitely, proven, unsustainable. We are living in a giant ticking time bomb.

    I want you to “Be a Man.”

    A “Man” .. in every sense of the word.. Looks out for his family (America), if someone is cheating or stealing from them, a “Man” would get pissed off and alert his family (America) about what is going on.

    Hold a press conference. Be a Man. Tell it how it is. Let it all out. Make a “CHANGE” like you claim to.

    Put your life on the line, as president, and tell everyone, what’s really going on.

    Be the hero that this country needs.

    Sincerely,
    The Future

  • The US is in trouble because it is an economically unsustainable model. It was always bound to fail, at some point. Just about every other country is in the same boat. It’s not as simple as ‘bad economic policy’ or government mistakes, good government can only delay the inevitable.

  • The solution lies in Mark Levin’s “Liberty Amendments”; I doubt that any of the members on this panel will even know of the book.

    • Ron Paul is about only money . He is for the corporations to take over and own our lives. It is as dirty as the money and politics we have now. No thank you to Ron Paul, Rand Paul, hell no Ted Cruz please, Tea Party — too selfish and too full of nonsense…

      • Total opposite. You obviously haven’t read his books. The corporations already own everything including our politicians and news. He wants to put an end to that and allow us to decide what to do with the money we earn instead of the fraudulent government.

        • So the rest of them are lying when they say they aren’t about money, but he’s given a special exclusion in your mind because?

  • so you think just MAYBE the left and the right are controlled by the same FUCKING HAND!!! WAKE UP SHEEPLE, you are being RAPED, and EATEN by the PSYCHOPATHS that OWN and RUN this LIE of a country, we are under a CORPORATE GOVENMENT not the Constitutional Republic our not so recent ancestors fought and died for!

  • TERM LIMITS. This change would IMMEDIATELY solve a multitude of evils in regard to a “bought Congress” that this dude speaks of. These Congresspeople on BOTH SIDES of the aisle FORGET WHO THEY WORK FOR once they get into office because they become self-interested and their biggest concern is retaining their seat and staying on the public tit for life. Their priority becomes retaining the perks of a government lifestyle and that sweet retirement and HEALTHCARE PACKAGE. Which by the way is NOT Obamacare in case you didn’t realize they’ve exempted themselves from, but it’s good enough for you and I. Yes, OUR TAXES pay their salaries, yet they don’t even live under the same laws we do. Nice.

    TERM LIMITS would prevent our “representatives” from becoming entrenched in their Congressional seats, being bought by lobbyists, and creating the most unholy of alliances to each other as well as to outside forces. Term limits would mean actual SERVICE to your country. You’d get INTO government, serve your country for a term or two and get the HELL OUT, get back into the private sector and earn a living again. This bullshit of spending your entire life suckling at the public tit and making decisions that benefit YOU over doing the right thing for the people of this country needs to STOP.

    • I agree… it would stop a lot of the BS of campaigning. Many of them are always campaigning and on vacation. HOWEVER that means they would have to vote themselves out of a career and a nice retirement system…. Totally agree with you. I would like to see them all get a six year run and then adios…. don’t quit your day job because you don’t get a retirement for serving just 6 years!!!.

      • They wouldn’t need term limits if people would actually pay attention and do a little research. We as Americans are at fault for where the country is more than anyone in office. We allow crap politicians to stay in office as long as they want (16 currently serving congressmen have over 36 years in office) because we don’t take the time to do any research into politics or politicians. We go to the ballots (or don’t go at all in most cases) and just check R or D. We call ourselves republican or democrat so we can feel like we are part of a team (not one person in America agrees with the stance of a side on every topic, not even the politicians) and all it does is keep us too busy arguing to actually pay attention and see what is going on. In fact to make things easier we should make congressmen/women wear jumpsuits featuring their sponsors like NASCAR drivers.

  • Mr. Ratigan isn’t incorrect in what ails America, but he is incorrect in his assumption that the President speaking to Americans directly will in some way change the ailment. President Obama could say 2 + 2 = 4 and a huge proportion of Americans would disagree with him and call him out for his liberal math. The GOP would attack his statements and try to cloud the issue. The Tea Party would say 2 + 2 = any number besides 4 in order to be opposed to the President, since they are motivated simply by racism and anti-government belligerence.

    Whether Mr. Ratigan wants to believe it or not, the reason the Democrats and Republicans can do so little about money in politics is because the American people are so bought by the money served. Were Americans not so uninformed, false attack ads would not work and would be used less. Were Americans not so partisan on the right side of the aisle, more conservatives would be better able to discern the truth of moderate Republican philosophies instead of accepting the falsehoods of the Tea Party. Instead, Americans are bought–hook, line, and sinker.

    AMERICANS are the problem. This is represented by our elected representatives. Yes, money in politics exacerbates the problem like crazy, but intelligence and education promptly prevent more reasonable people from buying into the distortions created by the same money in politics. Money in politics is all about advertising, and when the advertising stops working, the money stops being as impactful. PERIOD.

    • ” since they are motivated simply by racism…” And with that, you prove yourself to be a ignorant fool. Were you lefties not so misinformed about what the Tea Party stands for and the solutions they advocate, then maybe you’d realize that the Tea Party a) doesn’t give a flying rat’s *** about the color of the President’s skin (the Tea Party movement began during Bush’s last regime, btw), and b) simply stands for a restoration of the original Constitution as the dominant force in law, not twisted around to justify any action the dear President seeks to take.

      The Tea Party stands for decentralizing power in all respects, politically, economically and culturally. Why? Because you are perfectly capable of taking care of yourself and making your own choices, for good or for bad. You don’t need the government mandating every action that you take. Yes, there are jerks in the country that have the ability to mess up your life, and part of the government’s job is to prosecute those people. However, if you decentralize power from Washington and return the power to determine one’s own destiny to individuals and the communities in which they live, you may not agree with every decision a person or community chooses to make (e.g. opposing gay marriage, keeping with the standard incandescent light bulbs), but you limit their ability to affect your life in a negative way.

      What we have right now is a system where a few jerks in Washington and New York can screw things up for everybody, and your side of the aisle thinks the solution to this is to further centralize power, when all you are doing is creating more powerful jerks. You buy into the line that because the Tea Party supports capitalism, that means they support all of the corporate jerks. You buy into the idea that because most members of the Tea Party oppose gay marriage, that means they want to control everything about your life. All the Tea Party is trying to do is get rid of the undue influence the political, banking and corporate masterminds are able inflict on this country and return the ability to craft one’s own life back to the individual.

      If the government would spend far more time prosecuting the bankers and far less time worrying about what kind of light bulb we use, we would be a lot better off. Furthermore, if you people would spend far more time learning about what the Tea Party ACTUALLY stands for, and far less time taking your lines from Jon Stewart, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, New York Times, etc., etc., etc., then maybe we could actually come together with solutions that would truly benefit and empower everyone, not just create more powerful jerks.

      • “If the government would spend far more time prosecuting the bankers…” This is such a false claim, as the reason the government cannot prosecute banks and bankers MORE if because the laws that criminalize such fraud were weakened and watered down by the Republican Party–such that it is almost impossible to prove criminal intent under the standard set by the laws involved. You and Tea Party activists always make this claim and then completely ignore the fact that you and your party (and mine, too, despite my lack of current support) have been the chief player in continuing the charade of protecting banks and bankers and the complaining about them when it’s convenient or doesn’t play to your whims. Pure hypocrisy.

        You also claim that the Tea Party started under George W. Bush. That is technically correct, but the real accusations of economic abuse came only while Obama was President (and starting to lead in polls while George W. Bush was still President). The simple fact is that the Tea Party and its thinking were completely absent while George W. Bush and the white GOP were doing all the things they did for 8 years in taking us from surplus to deficit…taking us into 2 wars without paying for them, giving us tax breaks without paying for them, and giving us a Medicare prescription drug benefit without paying for it. NOT A WORD from the GOP rightwing conservatives when that was happening. ONLY when the economy started to tank completely and the government had to either bail out banks or risk a worldwide economic meltdown did some on the right begin to wonder. Suddenly, once Obama was elected, the government became the enemy for all people according to the Tea Party. Belief to the contrary might make you feel better,but it doesn’t make it accurate.

        Capitalism is fine. Wall Street exercised capitalism without regulation by government and you can see where that got us. The Great Depression in the 1930s. The Great Recession from the 2007-2010. You might not like regulation or government, but without it the free market doesn’t work fairly or equitably like you Tea Party ignoramuses like to pretend. You ignore the facts and history which CLEARLY show you are wrong, but you claim the progressives are the problem. Yeah…

        • As to your first paragraph, why do you think the Tea Party hates the Republican Party so much? We realize how much the Republicans say one thing and do another, and it’s only a matter of time before they finally tick us off so much that we bolt. It’s a side issue, but this whole recession began as nothing more than numbers on paper. There was nothing real about it until we sank $4 Trillion of debt into trying to “fix” it.

          The Tea Party didn’t start because of Obama; it started because of Bush’s policies that we got sick of holding our nose in supporting and because John McCain became the Republican nominee for President that year. We realized that we had no true representation, and so the Tea Party began. It could have been anybody on the Democrat side, and it wouldn’t have mattered a hill of beans. The color of his skin matters as much in terms of our opposition as what kind of shampoo he uses.

          The wars were a result of us being attacked, and, fine, we were apparently wrong about Iraq. The tax cuts benefitted everybody, as we are all seeing now that they have largely been eliminated, but the deficit rose because Bush and Congress spent like drunken sailors, which, had you been paying attention to what conservatives were actually saying, you would have heard all kinds of criticisms over it, ESPECIALLY regarding Medicare Prescription Drugs. It was also the Tea Party that was hounding Congress to not pass TARP or bailout the banks. And once Bush said, “We must abandon the free market in order to save it”, that is when we all realized that the government was full of enemies and that we had been duped by Bush.

          Your side is realizing it now in the form of Obama. You want to complain about two wars being fought on debt? What about everything that Obama’s doing? What about Obamacare? That’s fine if you’re still coming to terms with being duped. We both agree that there is a ruling class that screws us all over, and it doesn’t matter who started it because both sides are culpable, both sides had hands in starting it, both sides continued it. All Obama is doing is making it far worse than anybody before him. You want to complain about the debt? Look at the debt Obama has run up. Bush increased it plenty, but Obama has done nothing to bring it back down to Earth.
          If you hated Bush and like Obama, then you don’t get it. If you liked Bush all the way to the end and hate Obama, then you don’t get it. If you realize that Bush and Obama are essentially the same person in different suits with a different letter beside their name, then you get it.

          Believe me, we agree on far more than you would ever want to admit. You don’t know what the Tea Party stands for, and you justify your ignorance by claiming it’s all because “we dunt like that black man in the White House, derp-a-derp”. The free market worked just fine in 19th century, it worked just fine up until central banking took hold. Even then, it worked just fine in the 50s and 60, it worked just fine in the 80s and 90s, and it will work just fine again in the future. The free market works when it is allowed to. What’s going on now is fascism and crony capitalism, and that is what causes these maladies.

          • Bill, Gordon’s right. I’ve wanted balanced budgets since 1964. I know if my budget is balanced, I won’t be successful. Same thing with government budgets.
            I don’t despise Obama for his color. I despise him since I found out he’s an ally of Bill Ayres.

          • Wait, the Tea Party hates the Republicans? The leaders of the Republican party, hate Republicans? Less than a hundredth of them aren’t Republicans, and they hate Republicans?

            What’s more, they hate Obama more than they hate Reagan and Clinton- both of whom were more to the left on fiscal issues than Obama. In fact, they love Reagan, who increased the national debt three-fold, and hate Obama, who halved it (actually, from 2009-2013 more than halved it). Why pretend that the Tea Party is anything but a bunch of backwards, racist, Christian extremists- why? Because you’re one of them.

            You are lying about what almost every Tea Tard stands for: they’re anti-progressive, anti-tax, anti-government. They are the worst political faction in America, demonstrated by this shutdown which was at their urging because they are too stupid to understand the benefits of Obamacare, and because they think other health care is being shut off.

            If you want to lie about the Teabaggers, you’ll have to find people that aren’t informed.

        • Obama gave Banks a pass the past five years..He helped them , not us, with stimulus. I hate it when people blame Republicans for something they didn’t do. But then… hey.. why research when you can type words on a page and have no accountability.

          • Obama and the Democrats created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau against the wishes of the GOP…which also prevented Elizabeth Warren’s appointment as its director (even though she was the virtual creator of the agency)…and then held up every director appointment until this year in an effort to water down the CFPB as much as possible. The GOP would not allow the Democrats and Obama to create stronger financial regulations into that law creating the CFPB and others in order to better regulate and enforce those regulations against the banks. The GOP has prevented every Democratic effort to revise laws regulating banks to make them criminally and civilly more liable for possible fraud…which is the reason the DOJ has such difficulty in prosecuting bank fraud cases, since the criminal standard is so high that it is almost impossible to fraud even when it is essentially obvious otherwise. The GOP is the impediment here. Not Obama. I hate when FELLOW Republicans (since I am one, too) cannot admit the obvious–that the GOP works on behalf of banks and Wall Street to protect them from regulation and criminal and civil penalty against the obvious efforts to do so by the Democrats and President Obama…and then accuses the President and Democrats of being equally helpful in creating the mess the banks created to begin with. You are partisan and ignore the facts and history. Were it not for the GOP Senators threatening to filibuster every piece of legislation in Obama’s first 2 years and then the House GOP majority preventing all legislation pushed by Obama and Democrats since, the banks would be better regulated, held more liable for their actions, and not as threatening to our economy as a whole. Those are the FACTS.

          • The stimulus packages that were passed by… Congress? The lax regulations on banks because… Congress cares more about repealing Romneycare than getting anything done? Notice how not a single Republican in congress has proposed or even promoted better regulation of banks and big business? How not a single Republican in congress has even proposed a jobs bill?

            Why think when you can mindlessly ditto traitorous demagogues that crashed the economy and then shut down the government because they don’t like the idea of medical care that doesn’t choke out the majority of Americans with endless debt?

      • “Return the power to determine one’s own destiny” and “most members…oppose gay marriage” are mutually exclusive ideas. You can’t claim that a person’s life is up to them and them alone and then turn around and try regulate the lives of an entire minority. This is why people hate the Tea Party. Hypocrisy.

  • You idiots are trying to polarize this? Get off your gang mentality and make some phone calls to DC or shut up. Monkeys. FFS.

  • The only way this will happen is if we go to war. That is the people of the USA going after our government and the rich ceos of this country

  • It is not just Congress that is bought – the Administration (THE PRESIDENT, CZARS, ETC) is as corrupt and worse. Congress is marching to the POTUS’ orders. A speech does NOTHING when it comes from this speech addict POTUS.

  • We should all be this passionate about saving our country!!!!! that passion needs to take place in the voting booths…. They all gotta go.. and this guy… should become president….

  • Sadly, Barack Obama is in on the dupe! Sorry Dylan, but giving speeches doesn’t solve the problem. Barack Obama is bought & sold just like all the other politicians and he has no idea how to fix anything. He is the “Ameteur-in-Chief”.

  • Yes Obama is bought too. Thus the ‘inaction’ on his part for 5 yrs in getting his Senate Majority to pass a Budget. No Budget for 5 yrs folks..Nada under the Dems. Clintion and Carter did the same thing

  • I can’t understand why people only vote Republican or Democrat. What kind of a selection is that? And don’t give me that,” voting 3rd party is a wasted vote” nonsense. Vote for anyone but these two parties.

    • It’s a wasted vote until a third party can truly mobilize and present themselves to the American people as a viable alternative that isn’t just a slight “tweak” from the current two parties (the “Green Party”, for example) or a ridiculous extreme that no one in the middle would ever vote for (“Libertarians”). No third party has materialized that has been able to compete with the Repubs/Dems yet. Until one does, all third party voting is a wasted vote, yes.

  • The Republicans feared Ron Paul. That’s why they made sure he didn’t make the ballot. Ron’s not a typical Republican, but to get his voice heard, he made sure to run Republican. I know plenty of Liberals who liked him. As much as they agreed with him, they couldn’t. Just cause he ran as a Republican. Hell, I’d vote for Nader if he disguised himself as a Democrat.

  • I would vote for him! But sandly we have a president that has socialist ideals plunging the world into WWIII, blaming previous president bush for economies instability and if you go against such thought you are racist. The truth will come out, that no country can depend on its government when the government has insufficient funds by important more than it export. This system is crippling the people with empty promises for the strong, less desire to work for the weak and an unsafe future for all…

  • Like most people this gentlman is frustrated with the way his government officials are running the country. Constantly passing the buck.
    It is time President Obama dispose of Congress and start over again like President Theodore Roosevelt did because of the amount of incompetency occurred when making decisions for the financial well being of the country not to mention maintaining financial stability and consistent fiscal consistency.
    Need for affordable housing, controlled interest rates , for the working class, schools that will provide breakfasts for all children, provide after school programs for all children.
    We have had our issues here within our Canadian Congress too! It seems hereditary Congress has financial issues both In United Stares and in Canada. RCMP have ordered financial investigation in all parties concerned.
    God Bless us all!!

      • I’m not disagreeing that they are “bought”, I think you misread me. I’m just questioning his assertion that ONLY Congress is bought, and that the President can solve that, when really, the President and Congress are both bought. It’s been that way a long time, this is nothing novel.